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I'm not going to defend Jira, but don't you just need to break down each ticket into smaller ones. To use their metaphor. The airport gets a ticket. Then you

I'm not going to defend Jira, but don't you just need to break down each ticket into smaller ones. To use their metaphor. The airport gets a ticket. Then you put another ticket up that says 'find a good field to land in', then another that says 'level out field for x class of plane', then another that says 'install basic lights'etc. Things are now getting marked complete and you are agile all over again.

iainmerrick 8y ago
That sounds good but (as far as I know) Jira hard-codes the number of levels, so you quickly hit a point where you can’t break tasks down any further.
- jimnotgym 8y ago
  Presuming you are letting Jira decide there is a logical link, I suppose. You don't have to, do you? I must admit I haven't used it an awful lot, but maybe this is one of those traps that you use the functionality because it is there, even if it is not useful. In this example you could for instance create 'Airport' as an task and just write on it that you are going to aim for a dirt strip first and are going to start a separate task for this. This is the power and weakness of Trello, there is no link! Except of course you can create a new board called 'dirt-strip'
  - iainmerrick 8y ago
    Well, I’d like the tool to display the levels in a useful way, sure. Even just nested bullet points would be okay.
rabidrat 8y ago
What if that turns out to be an inefficient (poorly-architected) way to break it down? But it's half-implemented by the time someone calls attention to it, and it doesn't get re-architected because it's too late now. Breaking things down appropriately is, in my mind, 80% of the work. If you have your head straight, the implementation is easy; but it can take implementing virtually the entire thing to get your head straight.
- jimnotgym 8y ago
  > What if that turns out to be an inefficient (poorly-architected) way to break it down? Don't break out later stages too early then! Just enough to get to MVP. That is the essence of agile and XP isn't it?
  - rabidrat 8y ago
    If I don't break them out "too early" then that often means I'm not breaking them out until I'm almost finished :)
    - jimnotgym 8y ago
      > but it can take implementing virtually the entire thing to get your head straight. Seems to fit your needs then!
      - randomdata 8y ago
        Well, the developer didn't need it in the first place. It is not a useful tool for developers as we have better tools for developers. It is management that wants to see the work up in pretty JIRA lights and they want to see it before the project is already done.
    - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
      That's how agile should be done. You should plan out the things that you are doing short-term in more detail and the things you are doing long-term in less detail because you don't know as much about it and it is more likely to change.
ccarse 8y ago
The problem is many times you end up with tickets like 'create a runway' when there are already four perfectly good runways but the person doing the breakdown didn't realize that. And if your developers don't have a bigger picture understanding then they also won't know that there are already runways they should be using.

iainmerrick 8y ago

That sounds good but (as far as I know) Jira hard-codes the number of levels, so you quickly hit a point where you can’t break tasks down any further.

jimnotgym 8y ago
Presuming you are letting Jira decide there is a logical link, I suppose. You don't have to, do you? I must admit I haven't used it an awful lot, but maybe this is one of those traps that you use the functionality because it is there, even if it is not useful. In this example you could for instance create 'Airport' as an task and just write on it that you are going to aim for a dirt strip first and are going to start a separate task for this. This is the power and weakness of Trello, there is no link! Except of course you can create a new board called 'dirt-strip'
- iainmerrick 8y ago
  Well, I’d like the tool to display the levels in a useful way, sure. Even just nested bullet points would be okay.

rabidrat 8y ago

What if that turns out to be an inefficient (poorly-architected) way to break it down? But it's half-implemented by the time someone calls attention to it, and it doesn't get re-architected because it's too late now. Breaking things down appropriately is, in my mind, 80% of the work. If you have your head straight, the implementation is easy; but it can take implementing virtually the entire thing to get your head straight.

jimnotgym 8y ago
> What if that turns out to be an inefficient (poorly-architected) way to break it down? Don't break out later stages too early then! Just enough to get to MVP. That is the essence of agile and XP isn't it?
- rabidrat 8y ago
  If I don't break them out "too early" then that often means I'm not breaking them out until I'm almost finished :)
  - jimnotgym 8y ago
    > but it can take implementing virtually the entire thing to get your head straight. Seems to fit your needs then!
    - randomdata 8y ago
      Well, the developer didn't need it in the first place. It is not a useful tool for developers as we have better tools for developers. It is management that wants to see the work up in pretty JIRA lights and they want to see it before the project is already done.
  - TheCoelacanth 8y ago
    That's how agile should be done. You should plan out the things that you are doing short-term in more detail and the things you are doing long-term in less detail because you don't know as much about it and it is more likely to change.

ccarse 8y ago

The problem is many times you end up with tickets like 'create a runway' when there are already four perfectly good runways but the person doing the breakdown didn't realize that. And if your developers don't have a bigger picture understanding then they also won't know that there are already runways they should be using.