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> But voters—who have more quotidian concerns than optimally elegant economic policy—don’t always feel the same way. They don’t want gas prices to go up. The U

by Aunche 8y ago

> But voters—who have more quotidian concerns than optimally elegant economic policy—don’t always feel the same way. They don’t want gas prices to go up. The US is never going to take a substantial action against climate change until there's a huge change in attitude. On one side, conservatives are in denial. On the other side, liberals want companies or the government to pay for change and magically shield the cost away from the people. A carbon tax would be much more straightforward and effective than a "Green New Deal," but you don't get elected for promising to raise taxes. Instead, we get feel good programs like Cash for Clunkers and solar panel rebates that mostly just help the wealthy.

elicash 8y ago
> On one side, ... On the other side, ... Your brilliant solution is carbon tax, which is exactly what liberals ALREADY tried to do and couldn't get through because of Republican opposition. It's fine to fault both sides, but lazy to do so when it makes no sense just because you want to elevate yourself as some kind of free-thinker. And as far as popular support, I'll note that it just failed as a ballot initiative in the liberal state of Washington -- and while that proposal was a stronger one than other efforts, good luck trying to do carbon tax nationally given the track record there. I think we still try, but the arrogance with which people treat environmentalists bothers me -- get off the sidelines and join the efforts if you want to push for something else. An effort that focuses on green jobs, like the Green New Deal plan, is actually quite creative. I don't know if it's the best thing to push, but I'll support any effort that's gaining momentum that I think will be a good thing. You have to work as a coalition among people who are willing to put in the work.
- Aunche 8y ago
  This isn't about assigning blame to a political party. Democrats only have so much political capital, and they can't afford to waste it on a pie in the sky, like cap and trade or a green New Deal.
  - elicash 8y ago
    When you say "this isn't about assigning blame to a political party" what I hear is "there should be no political price to pay for opposing measures that we need to address climate change." If you want to argue a measure is bad on the merits, then fine argue that.
- Aunche 8y ago
  > I'll note that it just failed as a ballot initiative in the liberal state of Washington -- and while that proposal was a stronger one than other efforts, good luck trying to do carbon tax nationally given the track record there. Also, I just looked up this ballot measure and it looks pretty solid. The fact that it failed proves my point. It's easy to see how a tax would negatively affect their livelihoods, so people oppose it. The costs of building new wind turbines and tax rebates for electric cars are obscured, so they're popular even though they have questionable efficacy.
  - elicash 8y ago
    So what you're saying is that we should push policies we think will not generate popular support that can't pass, regardless of the consequences? I genuinely don't understand the point you're making, not trying to be difficult.
    - Aunche 8y ago
      Legislatures have a much better chance of voting for a carbon tax than the people, and they should prioritize this over other green initiatives. The more fundamental issue is how the climate issue is framed in the US. The narrative is that we can drastically cut emissions without affecting the average family's livelihoods, but the greedy Republicans just won't let that happen. In reality, everyone needs to make a sacrifice, and we can do a better job of acknowledging these sacrifices. As coal becomes becomes less popular, thousands of people will lose their jobs. It's disrespectful to suggest that this isn't a problem because we can just retrain them to build windmills. I don't have a good solution either, but much more effective legislation would be passed if Democrats and Republicans worked together rather than spend time fighting. I'm sure you'll point that Republicans are less willing to compromise than Democrats, but that's an entirely different can of worms.
      - elicash 8y ago
        > Legislatures have a much better chance of voting for a carbon tax than the people, and they should prioritize this over other green initiatives. Without public support I just have trouble seeing that happen. I don't think we disagree that much though. > It's disrespectful to suggest that this isn't a problem because we can just retrain them to build windmills. I certainly would agree that the people who lose jobs would mostly not be the same people who would be trained to take the new jobs that would be created. I remember reading Janesville and being pretty clearly convinced that skills training programs to people who lose their jobs are often counter-productive. That said, I do still think overall for the economy it'd be a positive.

by Aunche 8y ago

elicash 8y ago

> On one side, ... On the other side, ... Your brilliant solution is carbon tax, which is exactly what liberals ALREADY tried to do and couldn't get through because of Republican opposition. It's fine to fault both sides, but lazy to do so when it makes no sense just because you want to elevate yourself as some kind of free-thinker. And as far as popular support, I'll note that it just failed as a ballot initiative in the liberal state of Washington -- and while that proposal was a stronger one than other efforts, good luck trying to do carbon tax nationally given the track record there. I think we still try, but the arrogance with which people treat environmentalists bothers me -- get off the sidelines and join the efforts if you want to push for something else. An effort that focuses on green jobs, like the Green New Deal plan, is actually quite creative. I don't know if it's the best thing to push, but I'll support any effort that's gaining momentum that I think will be a good thing. You have to work as a coalition among people who are willing to put in the work.

Aunche 8y ago
This isn't about assigning blame to a political party. Democrats only have so much political capital, and they can't afford to waste it on a pie in the sky, like cap and trade or a green New Deal.
- elicash 8y ago
  When you say "this isn't about assigning blame to a political party" what I hear is "there should be no political price to pay for opposing measures that we need to address climate change." If you want to argue a measure is bad on the merits, then fine argue that.
Aunche 8y ago
> I'll note that it just failed as a ballot initiative in the liberal state of Washington -- and while that proposal was a stronger one than other efforts, good luck trying to do carbon tax nationally given the track record there. Also, I just looked up this ballot measure and it looks pretty solid. The fact that it failed proves my point. It's easy to see how a tax would negatively affect their livelihoods, so people oppose it. The costs of building new wind turbines and tax rebates for electric cars are obscured, so they're popular even though they have questionable efficacy.
- elicash 8y ago
  So what you're saying is that we should push policies we think will not generate popular support that can't pass, regardless of the consequences? I genuinely don't understand the point you're making, not trying to be difficult.
  - Aunche 8y ago
    Legislatures have a much better chance of voting for a carbon tax than the people, and they should prioritize this over other green initiatives. The more fundamental issue is how the climate issue is framed in the US. The narrative is that we can drastically cut emissions without affecting the average family's livelihoods, but the greedy Republicans just won't let that happen. In reality, everyone needs to make a sacrifice, and we can do a better job of acknowledging these sacrifices. As coal becomes becomes less popular, thousands of people will lose their jobs. It's disrespectful to suggest that this isn't a problem because we can just retrain them to build windmills. I don't have a good solution either, but much more effective legislation would be passed if Democrats and Republicans worked together rather than spend time fighting. I'm sure you'll point that Republicans are less willing to compromise than Democrats, but that's an entirely different can of worms.
    - elicash 8y ago
      > Legislatures have a much better chance of voting for a carbon tax than the people, and they should prioritize this over other green initiatives. Without public support I just have trouble seeing that happen. I don't think we disagree that much though. > It's disrespectful to suggest that this isn't a problem because we can just retrain them to build windmills. I certainly would agree that the people who lose jobs would mostly not be the same people who would be trained to take the new jobs that would be created. I remember reading Janesville and being pretty clearly convinced that skills training programs to people who lose their jobs are often counter-productive. That said, I do still think overall for the economy it'd be a positive.