4 ms·

my point in short is we don't have time for this right now. we need to de-carbonize our energy system a decade ago. this tech. is not operational and will take

by kjar 8y ago

my point in short is we don't have time for this right now. we need to de-carbonize our energy system a decade ago. this tech. is not operational and will take a decade to be so - that's not time we have to avoid catastrophic climate destabilization.

adrianmonk 8y ago
If the objection is that nuclear can't be built quickly enough, then the renewable options need to be judged against that same standard. Suppose everyone in the world already agreed to go a hundred percent renewable in 10 years. Effectively replacing the entire world's energy infrastructure is going to take a huge amount of raw materials and production capacity. Is there going to be enough? It's possible the answer is yes, but I wouldn't take it for granted. There will need to be a lot of battery storage, which means there needs to be a lot of lithium. Are there enough lithium mines? Have geologists identified enough deposits to cover that massive quantity? And are there enough factories that can build batteries? For wind, there will need to be neodymium permanent magnets. For solar, you need fabs to build it all. Maybe all those challenges can be solved, but maybe it's also possible to streamline the process of building nuclear fission power plants.
- sanxiyn 8y ago
  > There will need to be a lot of battery storage, which means there needs to be a lot of lithium. No, if we actually want this, pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a proven solution that works. There is actually no uncertainty regarding energy storage: we can do it.
  - xyzzyz 8y ago
    There is only limited number of sites where building pumped hydro is possible, and lots of them are already taken.
- Tade0 8y ago
  Are there enough lithium mines? No need to - there are 230 billion tonnes of the stuff in seawater. Just one percent of that is enough to create 25,000TWh worth of li-ion batteries - that's roughly the amount of electricity produced by the world annually. Also other chemistries like zinc-air are gaining traction and serve as a good, cheaper alternative.
  - DennisP 8y ago
    Can you point to a commercial operation recovering lithium from seawater? Demand for lithium is high and expected to go much higher, so a seawater extraction plant should at least be in development if it's feasible to do that. If it's purely a future technology, just like zinc-air batteries, then we should be allowed to look at future nuclear technologies as well, some of which are very much in development.
    - Tade0 8y ago
      Can you point to a commercial operation recovering lithium from seawater No, because it's exactly like with tar sands: it will happen when it's commercially viable. At this point it's much cheaper to "mine" the brines in Chile. If it's purely a future technology, just like zinc-air batteries Thing is - it isn't. Here's a company making grid-scale Zinc-Air batteries: https://eosenergystorage.com https://eosenergystorage.com They figured it out in 2015 and they're already sold-out for 2019 and secured funding for a production facility. And this is just one of many companies doing the same.
      - DennisP 8y ago
        Thanks, didn't know zinc-air was available for grid batteries. Btw uranium extraction from seawater has been demonstrated, and isn't used just because it's 5X more expensive than mining. That's not a showstopper because fuel is a small portion of nuclear energy cost.
      - pfdietz 8y ago
        I'd be happier with reference to EOS if I had been hearing more about them. They seem to have fallen off the map the last couple of years, which does not fill me with confidence.

by kjar 8y ago

adrianmonk 8y ago

If the objection is that nuclear can't be built quickly enough, then the renewable options need to be judged against that same standard. Suppose everyone in the world already agreed to go a hundred percent renewable in 10 years. Effectively replacing the entire world's energy infrastructure is going to take a huge amount of raw materials and production capacity. Is there going to be enough? It's possible the answer is yes, but I wouldn't take it for granted. There will need to be a lot of battery storage, which means there needs to be a lot of lithium. Are there enough lithium mines? Have geologists identified enough deposits to cover that massive quantity? And are there enough factories that can build batteries? For wind, there will need to be neodymium permanent magnets. For solar, you need fabs to build it all. Maybe all those challenges can be solved, but maybe it's also possible to streamline the process of building nuclear fission power plants.

sanxiyn 8y ago
> There will need to be a lot of battery storage, which means there needs to be a lot of lithium. No, if we actually want this, pumped-storage hydroelectricity is a proven solution that works. There is actually no uncertainty regarding energy storage: we can do it.
- xyzzyz 8y ago
  There is only limited number of sites where building pumped hydro is possible, and lots of them are already taken.
Tade0 8y ago
Are there enough lithium mines? No need to - there are 230 billion tonnes of the stuff in seawater. Just one percent of that is enough to create 25,000TWh worth of li-ion batteries - that's roughly the amount of electricity produced by the world annually. Also other chemistries like zinc-air are gaining traction and serve as a good, cheaper alternative.
- DennisP 8y ago
  Can you point to a commercial operation recovering lithium from seawater? Demand for lithium is high and expected to go much higher, so a seawater extraction plant should at least be in development if it's feasible to do that. If it's purely a future technology, just like zinc-air batteries, then we should be allowed to look at future nuclear technologies as well, some of which are very much in development.
  - Tade0 8y ago
    Can you point to a commercial operation recovering lithium from seawater No, because it's exactly like with tar sands: it will happen when it's commercially viable. At this point it's much cheaper to "mine" the brines in Chile. If it's purely a future technology, just like zinc-air batteries Thing is - it isn't. Here's a company making grid-scale Zinc-Air batteries: https://eosenergystorage.com https://eosenergystorage.com They figured it out in 2015 and they're already sold-out for 2019 and secured funding for a production facility. And this is just one of many companies doing the same.
    - DennisP 8y ago
      Thanks, didn't know zinc-air was available for grid batteries. Btw uranium extraction from seawater has been demonstrated, and isn't used just because it's 5X more expensive than mining. That's not a showstopper because fuel is a small portion of nuclear energy cost.
    - pfdietz 8y ago
      I'd be happier with reference to EOS if I had been hearing more about them. They seem to have fallen off the map the last couple of years, which does not fill me with confidence.