4 ms·

After watching some of Nelson's videos a while back, and now reading this, it sounds like the real goal is just: 1. Document Versioning 2. A universe in which

by alex_g 8y ago

After watching some of Nelson's videos a while back, and now reading this, it sounds like the real goal is just: 1. Document Versioning 2. A universe in which all content creators properly cite their source material. 3. A better way of publishing text so that it's easier to parse.

no_identd 8y ago
> it sounds like the real goal is just No. I suspect you have the kind of point of view where we might better first discuss the proposed data structure and THEN what we'll do with it. First, you'll want to learn about zzstructure/hyperthogonal structure: http://xanadu.com/zigzag/ http://xanadu.com/zigzag/ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zzstructure https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zzstructure for a comparison of the above with Ubergraphs (a generalization of Ultragraphs, themselves a generalization of Hypergraphs), you'll want to check here: https://github.com/JeffreyBenjaminBrown/digraphs-with-text/issues/11 https://github.com/JeffreyBenjaminBrown/digraphs-with-text/i... Once you think you comprehend the above, consider spending some time thinking about how you could come up with a 'canonical', graphical user interface AND user experience for a Ubergraph that uses hyperthogonal structure. Then imagine how you'd implement such a data structure in a distributed, peer to peer, UNCENTRALIZABLE (not just decentralized!), secure manner. If you can imagine all of that and think you comprehend at least one tiny part of the implications of such a thing, then you comprehend about 1/10 of "the real goal" of Xanadu, and I invite you to consider continuing to ponder the possibilities.
- mimixco 8y ago
  You are entirely right that the data structure is paramount. But I'm not using Xanalogical documents nor any front or backend designs from Ted. I actually think he didn't do a very good job with those. Instead, Mimix records a user's interactions in MSL, a domain-specific language (not Turing complete on purpose) which describes a forward-write-only experience of reading and text composition. I'm glad you brought up the UI because it's an area ripe for innovation and one we're seriously excited about. UI is one of my specialties and I'm looking forward to sharing our designs for interacting with canonical documents in a modern and approachable way. HN is my favorite place to post this kind of stuff, so you'll "Hear it here first."
mimixco 8y ago
No, Yes, and Yes! Most importantly, Xanadu and Mimix are very different products. Nelson envisioned Xanadu as a publishing and copyright enforcement system. Mimix is aimed at the opposite group of users: those who create and consume textual content. Mimix is about more than document versioning. In Mimix, there are no documents. There are only atoms and streams. A stream is a sequence of atoms which can be presented in its original order (chronologically, as it is created) or remixed or extracted without limitation. A "document" that you read in the wild and later write about is, in Mimix, a stream of unalterable atoms, recorded in a write-only database. This is vastly different from today's document and paper metaphor, which is really an artifact of the printing press that can be dispensed with. Proper citation is half the goal of Mimix's implementation of what we call canonical data -- making sure that the reader knows what came from where. But the other half lies in assisting the writer in finding and organizing these sources in the first place. Today, research and writing are separate tools done in different programs. A great economy would be realized if these functions were intelligently combined. And YES! to a better method of publishing (I would say "representing") text. Everything that happens during a Mimix session is recorded in MSL, the Mimix Stream Recording language. Instead of files of dumb data that get interpreted by different programs in different ways, MSL upgrades the data to include instructions about what's going on -- as it's being written. This allows the next user to rewind and fast-forward (as you would with a video) but also to extract and remix (which are not possible with video.) Thanks for giving me a jumping-off point for discussion! :-)

by alex_g 8y ago

no_identd 8y ago

> it sounds like the real goal is just No. I suspect you have the kind of point of view where we might better first discuss the proposed data structure and THEN what we'll do with it. First, you'll want to learn about zzstructure/hyperthogonal structure: http://xanadu.com/zigzag/ http://xanadu.com/zigzag/ https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zzstructure https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=zzstructure for a comparison of the above with Ubergraphs (a generalization of Ultragraphs, themselves a generalization of Hypergraphs), you'll want to check here: https://github.com/JeffreyBenjaminBrown/digraphs-with-text/issues/11 https://github.com/JeffreyBenjaminBrown/digraphs-with-text/i... Once you think you comprehend the above, consider spending some time thinking about how you could come up with a 'canonical', graphical user interface AND user experience for a Ubergraph that uses hyperthogonal structure. Then imagine how you'd implement such a data structure in a distributed, peer to peer, UNCENTRALIZABLE (not just decentralized!), secure manner. If you can imagine all of that and think you comprehend at least one tiny part of the implications of such a thing, then you comprehend about 1/10 of "the real goal" of Xanadu, and I invite you to consider continuing to ponder the possibilities.

mimixco 8y ago
You are entirely right that the data structure is paramount. But I'm not using Xanalogical documents nor any front or backend designs from Ted. I actually think he didn't do a very good job with those. Instead, Mimix records a user's interactions in MSL, a domain-specific language (not Turing complete on purpose) which describes a forward-write-only experience of reading and text composition. I'm glad you brought up the UI because it's an area ripe for innovation and one we're seriously excited about. UI is one of my specialties and I'm looking forward to sharing our designs for interacting with canonical documents in a modern and approachable way. HN is my favorite place to post this kind of stuff, so you'll "Hear it here first."

mimixco 8y ago

No, Yes, and Yes! Most importantly, Xanadu and Mimix are very different products. Nelson envisioned Xanadu as a publishing and copyright enforcement system. Mimix is aimed at the opposite group of users: those who create and consume textual content. Mimix is about more than document versioning. In Mimix, there are no documents. There are only atoms and streams. A stream is a sequence of atoms which can be presented in its original order (chronologically, as it is created) or remixed or extracted without limitation. A "document" that you read in the wild and later write about is, in Mimix, a stream of unalterable atoms, recorded in a write-only database. This is vastly different from today's document and paper metaphor, which is really an artifact of the printing press that can be dispensed with. Proper citation is half the goal of Mimix's implementation of what we call canonical data -- making sure that the reader knows what came from where. But the other half lies in assisting the writer in finding and organizing these sources in the first place. Today, research and writing are separate tools done in different programs. A great economy would be realized if these functions were intelligently combined. And YES! to a better method of publishing (I would say "representing") text. Everything that happens during a Mimix session is recorded in MSL, the Mimix Stream Recording language. Instead of files of dumb data that get interpreted by different programs in different ways, MSL upgrades the data to include instructions about what's going on -- as it's being written. This allows the next user to rewind and fast-forward (as you would with a video) but also to extract and remix (which are not possible with video.) Thanks for giving me a jumping-off point for discussion! :-)