6 ms·

I agree that competition of some kind could be welcome, but welcoming the state sponsored propaganda of autocratic, corrupt and repressive states just because t

I agree that competition of some kind could be welcome, but welcoming the state sponsored propaganda of autocratic, corrupt and repressive states just because their own hegemonic desires conflict with those of the US strikes me as being the most politically facile stance imaginable.

thiagoharry 8y ago
I suspect that any competition would always be portrayed as autocratic, corrupt and repressive, as we are influenced by the other side of the propaganda. Not that this is a lie. I really think that you will find some degree of repression, autocratism and corruption in any state seeking to attain or trying to keep some degree of global power and facing some opposition.
- elefanten 8y ago
  Maybe hypothetically. But in this case we know that we're talking about China so there's no need to speculate about relative autocracy, corruption and repression.
- losteric 8y ago
  The degree and ends do matter. Chinese autocratic actions are not equivalent to the shaping of American discourse by for-profit institutions. I will trust the one that has codified free speech - however flawed.
- glenstein 8y ago
  I don't think whataboutism is automatically wrong. But in the context of hn threads on China, I feel it often adds an unhelpful layer of abstraction. It's never clear if people doing the whatabouting actually dispute the negative characterization of China, or whether they agree with it but also want to change the subject to a broader topic in way the unfocuses the lense of the conversation. The moral condemnation of what China is doing is not information I want to be lost from the conversation, and that seems to always be an effect of the whatabouting.
  - dingoegret 8y ago
    I'm curious what it is about what about it not ism, that is so bad. I hear it flung around so much by westerners like some kind of slogan. Is there a purpose? Is pointing out hypocrisy bad?
dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago
The problem here is that the media of democratic and not so repressive states failed us miserably. It's not that almost all of them joined in unison when Afghanistan was attacked, and in a similar way during the invasion on Iraq that ultimately gave birth to ISIS. Even discussions on current copyright and patent laws are avoided. (As a thought experiment, imagine the Gates Foundation supporting generic equivalents of expensive drugs and going to a war with the Big Pharma; that's unthinkable, even though many more lives could be saved in this way - see the case of Sofosbuvir.) You need to be in line with the American values and ways of thinking or else you face trouble. This happens on so many levels people even stopped paying attention, let alone questioning it.
- losteric 8y ago
  Not true. I think you're conflating content with the traditional (for-profit) distribution mediums. For-profit channels distribute profitable ideas. Profitsble ideas have mass appeal. Unsurprising. However, there are no social pressure to write for the mainstream (beyond the practical constraints of our capitalist society). Social media has empowered counter-culture narratives toward both good and bad ends. Go criticize the state in China and compare your experience with the US - guess which state will "fail"
  - AsyncAwait 8y ago
    I get your point, but in the West they'll smear you and try to strangle you economically, if you're one of these small, independent outlets. Also, platforms like YouTube is where the audience is, but you'd get ads pulled as soon as you mention something like Iran etc.
  - dingoegret 8y ago
    You affirm his point that western journalism is tainted with monomaniacle political agendas in the west. Then you deny it. This just seems like psued hand wavy deflection meant to obfuscate. Make an actual point instead of just deflecting with tone intended to sound like a rejection.
RodericDay 8y ago
Honestly, the way flagship american news corporations publish fawning hagiographies of people like McCain and Bush and Obama and Bill Gates, justify and promote wars, etc. it's really not meaningfully distinct from "statist" equivalents. Americans criticize countries singing anthems and making military parades and all that stuff, while seemingly completely unaware of Mt. Rushmore, anthems and jets in sports games, etc.

thiagoharry 8y ago

I suspect that any competition would always be portrayed as autocratic, corrupt and repressive, as we are influenced by the other side of the propaganda. Not that this is a lie. I really think that you will find some degree of repression, autocratism and corruption in any state seeking to attain or trying to keep some degree of global power and facing some opposition.

elefanten 8y ago
Maybe hypothetically. But in this case we know that we're talking about China so there's no need to speculate about relative autocracy, corruption and repression.
losteric 8y ago
The degree and ends do matter. Chinese autocratic actions are not equivalent to the shaping of American discourse by for-profit institutions. I will trust the one that has codified free speech - however flawed.
glenstein 8y ago
I don't think whataboutism is automatically wrong. But in the context of hn threads on China, I feel it often adds an unhelpful layer of abstraction. It's never clear if people doing the whatabouting actually dispute the negative characterization of China, or whether they agree with it but also want to change the subject to a broader topic in way the unfocuses the lense of the conversation. The moral condemnation of what China is doing is not information I want to be lost from the conversation, and that seems to always be an effect of the whatabouting.
- dingoegret 8y ago
  I'm curious what it is about what about it not ism, that is so bad. I hear it flung around so much by westerners like some kind of slogan. Is there a purpose? Is pointing out hypocrisy bad?

dvfjsdhgfv 8y ago

The problem here is that the media of democratic and not so repressive states failed us miserably. It's not that almost all of them joined in unison when Afghanistan was attacked, and in a similar way during the invasion on Iraq that ultimately gave birth to ISIS. Even discussions on current copyright and patent laws are avoided. (As a thought experiment, imagine the Gates Foundation supporting generic equivalents of expensive drugs and going to a war with the Big Pharma; that's unthinkable, even though many more lives could be saved in this way - see the case of Sofosbuvir.) You need to be in line with the American values and ways of thinking or else you face trouble. This happens on so many levels people even stopped paying attention, let alone questioning it.

losteric 8y ago
Not true. I think you're conflating content with the traditional (for-profit) distribution mediums. For-profit channels distribute profitable ideas. Profitsble ideas have mass appeal. Unsurprising. However, there are no social pressure to write for the mainstream (beyond the practical constraints of our capitalist society). Social media has empowered counter-culture narratives toward both good and bad ends. Go criticize the state in China and compare your experience with the US - guess which state will "fail"
- AsyncAwait 8y ago
  I get your point, but in the West they'll smear you and try to strangle you economically, if you're one of these small, independent outlets. Also, platforms like YouTube is where the audience is, but you'd get ads pulled as soon as you mention something like Iran etc.
- dingoegret 8y ago
  You affirm his point that western journalism is tainted with monomaniacle political agendas in the west. Then you deny it. This just seems like psued hand wavy deflection meant to obfuscate. Make an actual point instead of just deflecting with tone intended to sound like a rejection.

RodericDay 8y ago

Honestly, the way flagship american news corporations publish fawning hagiographies of people like McCain and Bush and Obama and Bill Gates, justify and promote wars, etc. it's really not meaningfully distinct from "statist" equivalents. Americans criticize countries singing anthems and making military parades and all that stuff, while seemingly completely unaware of Mt. Rushmore, anthems and jets in sports games, etc.