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> but the energy industry over the last ~150 years has driven nearly unimaginable increases in human development, standard of living, poverty reduction, and tec

> but the energy industry over the last ~150 years has driven nearly unimaginable increases in human development, standard of living, poverty reduction, and technology. Depends on what is understood by the standard of living. The situation where some people have to spend 6 hours a day trapped inside their vehicles just to get to work and back home, hardly can be seen as a high standard of living. I tend to be quite sceptical about the claims that high energy consumption is imperative for higher standard of living.

ryanwaggoner 8y ago
I understand, believe me. There's still a lot of suffering and misery in the world. We have far to go. But there has been a pretty clear increase in standard of living, even if you consider that some people have long commutes in climate-controlled vehicles with comfortable seats and media devices at their fingertips, on their way to jobs where they earn a PPP-adjusted income that's historically and globally very high. Think of the global decreases over the past century in starvation, disease, infant mortality, maternal mortality, illiteracy, accidental death, etc. Things aren't perfect because they'll never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we haven't made progress overall.
- arbitrary_name 8y ago
  And what if all of the progress is undone by cripplying drought, flooding, intense storms, crop shortages? There is no denying that fossil fuels have brought an unprecedented level of wealth and prosperity. But what we need to do is face up to the fact that we will lose all of those gains if we arent willing to sacrifice some if them to avoid disaster. Sharing renewable tech with developing countries, ending fossil fuel subsidies, taxing emissions, legislating with a healthy environment as a first priority - they will make many a little bit worse off, but are utterly crucial for any hope of a prosperous future.
  - ryanwaggoner 8y ago
    I agree that we need to make those changes but I think we will, just too late. And yet I still don’t think we’ll “give up all the gains” of the past 150 years.
drak0n1c 8y ago
Before fossil fuels instead of some people spending up to 6 extra hours a day sitting in motorized transport nearly all people in every society were spending those 6+ extra hours doing back-breaking work in the fields.
- perfunctory 8y ago
  That’s a bit of a myth. In feodal european soscieties - maybe. But not in _every_ sosciety. > The Kapauku people of Papua think it is bad luck to work two consecutive days. The !Kung Bushmen work just two-and-a-half days per week, rarely more than six hours per day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time

ryanwaggoner 8y ago

I understand, believe me. There's still a lot of suffering and misery in the world. We have far to go. But there has been a pretty clear increase in standard of living, even if you consider that some people have long commutes in climate-controlled vehicles with comfortable seats and media devices at their fingertips, on their way to jobs where they earn a PPP-adjusted income that's historically and globally very high. Think of the global decreases over the past century in starvation, disease, infant mortality, maternal mortality, illiteracy, accidental death, etc. Things aren't perfect because they'll never be perfect, but that doesn't mean we haven't made progress overall.

arbitrary_name 8y ago
And what if all of the progress is undone by cripplying drought, flooding, intense storms, crop shortages? There is no denying that fossil fuels have brought an unprecedented level of wealth and prosperity. But what we need to do is face up to the fact that we will lose all of those gains if we arent willing to sacrifice some if them to avoid disaster. Sharing renewable tech with developing countries, ending fossil fuel subsidies, taxing emissions, legislating with a healthy environment as a first priority - they will make many a little bit worse off, but are utterly crucial for any hope of a prosperous future.
- ryanwaggoner 8y ago
  I agree that we need to make those changes but I think we will, just too late. And yet I still don’t think we’ll “give up all the gains” of the past 150 years.

drak0n1c 8y ago

Before fossil fuels instead of some people spending up to 6 extra hours a day sitting in motorized transport nearly all people in every society were spending those 6+ extra hours doing back-breaking work in the fields.

perfunctory 8y ago
That’s a bit of a myth. In feodal european soscieties - maybe. But not in _every_ sosciety. > The Kapauku people of Papua think it is bad luck to work two consecutive days. The !Kung Bushmen work just two-and-a-half days per week, rarely more than six hours per day. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time