6 ms·

> Every citizen of a self respecting nation has a personal responsibility to fight wrongs, and be sensible and rational in how he treats others. I think everyb

by zaro 8y ago

> Every citizen of a self respecting nation has a personal responsibility to fight wrongs, and be sensible and rational in how he treats others. I think everybody already does so. But right and wrong are very subjective things and this fighting the wrongs is contributing a lot to the global mess.

homarp 8y ago
>But right and wrong are very subjective things is "the earth is flat" a subjective wrong ? is "climate changes unless you change" a subjective wrong ? is "poverty" a subjective wrong ? is "education is important" a subjective right ? is "rules of law" a subjective wrong ? is "same gender, same pay" a subjective right ?
- zaro 8y ago
  I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of subjective. "the earth is flat" let's say this is clearly wrong for you and me, is it wrong for the guy who wants to launch a rocket to prove it's right (there were news about him few weeks ago)? So while his views are wrong from the viewpoint of the majority, they are right from his own viewpoint. Same for the rest of your examples.
  - homarp 8y ago
    to me, subjective: a thing/a thought based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. The parent was saying "personal responsibility to fight wrongs": to me, it means some people are wrong (as in they believe something that is wrong, even, if of course, they think they are right). But it is just wrong, not subjectively wrong. And it is my duty to do something about it (either convince, educate, or even censor,...). So I guess you are right, I don't understand your point about "But right and wrong are very subjective things and this fighting the wrongs is contributing a lot to the global mess." Because the way I read you is "stop trying to 'fight' the wrong, and the mess will be less".
- fjsolwmv 8y ago
  Yes, they are, mostly, when you dig into the details below the platitudes.
  - homarp 8y ago
    if you can elaborate, I'm interested.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  is "the earth is flat" a subjective wrong? No. is "climate changes unless you change" a subjective wrong? Yes. Define "change". Also, climate changes without individual change. Also, individual change isn't going to impact climate change. is "poverty" a subjective wrong? Do you mean the source of poverty or how to deal with it? Either way, yes both of those are subjective. is "education is important" a subjective right? Yes, this is subjective. Many people have massive student debt and education that doesn't offer them any sort value in the employment marketplace. is "rules of law" a subjective wrong? Yes, how it's carried out very much so. is "same gender, same pay" a subjective right? Yes, because a lot of people would say we've already achieved that in the west and a lot of people feel the opposite. I think you've picked some of the most subjective issues of modern times as your examples of things that are objective in nature.
  - homarp 8y ago
    >individual change isn't going to impact climate change. Each individual not changing is not going to help either. Inaction makes it worse. > Do you mean the source of poverty or how to deal with it? No, I mean "poverty is a bad thing and we should work to eradicate it". As for 'how to deal with it', it's a polical choice. >"education is important" Yes it is. Both for basics (democracy, "being able to make an 'educated' choice when I vote", ) and "AI is coming to get you" >people have massive student debt This is mostly a US problem, no ? The world is bigger. (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9656905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9656905 ) >education that doesn't offer them any sort value in the employment marketplace. But at the same time, the "learn to code in 30 days" business is booming, because there are jobs there. And education is used at least as a proxy when hiring. >is "rules of law" a subjective wrong? Business can only prosper if rules of law is enforced. So I see "rules of law" as an objective 'right'. "How" is the essence of "rules of law". >I think you've picked some of the most subjective issues of modern times as your examples of things that are objective in nature. Actually, I voluntarily selected the ones where it makes people uncomfortable to acknowledge they are on the wrong side of the "right and wrong", to illustrate what I see as the parent point "every citizen of a self respecting nation has a personal responsibility to fight wrongs".

by zaro 8y ago

homarp 8y ago

>But right and wrong are very subjective things is "the earth is flat" a subjective wrong ? is "climate changes unless you change" a subjective wrong ? is "poverty" a subjective wrong ? is "education is important" a subjective right ? is "rules of law" a subjective wrong ? is "same gender, same pay" a subjective right ?

zaro 8y ago
I think you are misunderstanding the meaning of subjective. "the earth is flat" let's say this is clearly wrong for you and me, is it wrong for the guy who wants to launch a rocket to prove it's right (there were news about him few weeks ago)? So while his views are wrong from the viewpoint of the majority, they are right from his own viewpoint. Same for the rest of your examples.
- homarp 8y ago
  to me, subjective: a thing/a thought based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions. The parent was saying "personal responsibility to fight wrongs": to me, it means some people are wrong (as in they believe something that is wrong, even, if of course, they think they are right). But it is just wrong, not subjectively wrong. And it is my duty to do something about it (either convince, educate, or even censor,...). So I guess you are right, I don't understand your point about "But right and wrong are very subjective things and this fighting the wrongs is contributing a lot to the global mess." Because the way I read you is "stop trying to 'fight' the wrong, and the mess will be less".
fjsolwmv 8y ago
Yes, they are, mostly, when you dig into the details below the platitudes.
- homarp 8y ago
  if you can elaborate, I'm interested.
malvosenior 8y ago
is "the earth is flat" a subjective wrong? No. is "climate changes unless you change" a subjective wrong? Yes. Define "change". Also, climate changes without individual change. Also, individual change isn't going to impact climate change. is "poverty" a subjective wrong? Do you mean the source of poverty or how to deal with it? Either way, yes both of those are subjective. is "education is important" a subjective right? Yes, this is subjective. Many people have massive student debt and education that doesn't offer them any sort value in the employment marketplace. is "rules of law" a subjective wrong? Yes, how it's carried out very much so. is "same gender, same pay" a subjective right? Yes, because a lot of people would say we've already achieved that in the west and a lot of people feel the opposite. I think you've picked some of the most subjective issues of modern times as your examples of things that are objective in nature.
- homarp 8y ago
  >individual change isn't going to impact climate change. Each individual not changing is not going to help either. Inaction makes it worse. > Do you mean the source of poverty or how to deal with it? No, I mean "poverty is a bad thing and we should work to eradicate it". As for 'how to deal with it', it's a polical choice. >"education is important" Yes it is. Both for basics (democracy, "being able to make an 'educated' choice when I vote", ) and "AI is coming to get you" >people have massive student debt This is mostly a US problem, no ? The world is bigger. (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9656905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9656905 ) >education that doesn't offer them any sort value in the employment marketplace. But at the same time, the "learn to code in 30 days" business is booming, because there are jobs there. And education is used at least as a proxy when hiring. >is "rules of law" a subjective wrong? Business can only prosper if rules of law is enforced. So I see "rules of law" as an objective 'right'. "How" is the essence of "rules of law". >I think you've picked some of the most subjective issues of modern times as your examples of things that are objective in nature. Actually, I voluntarily selected the ones where it makes people uncomfortable to acknowledge they are on the wrong side of the "right and wrong", to illustrate what I see as the parent point "every citizen of a self respecting nation has a personal responsibility to fight wrongs".