4 ms·

This seems incredibly weak because they haven't shown causation -- or, in particular, disproved reverse causation. (That people struggling with weight gain are

This seems incredibly weak because they haven't shown causation -- or, in particular, disproved reverse causation. (That people struggling with weight gain are more likely to use sugar substitutes.) This is more of a "huh, someone should do additional research" paper than anything conclusive.

ineedasername 8y ago
Came here to make exactly this point. It seems like the people already slim and petite are less likely to be drawn to such artificial additives, whereas many/most overweight people would at least be trying some "bare minimum" weight management through them.
- lucas_membrane 8y ago
  Yes, this shows how hard science can be. Studies have shown both that people who consume artificial sweeteners tend to gain a little weight (like this study) and that people who lose a lot of weight tend to be above-average consumers of artificial sweeteners. Best hope is that chemistry can untangle the mess.
  - killjoywashere 8y ago
    Not only all the above, but where's the head-to-head comparison with sucrose (layman's 'sugar')-sweetened beverages?
- natecavanaugh 8y ago
  Not only that, but often people will justify a larger calorie consumption because the diet soda is free. I imagine that this sort of thing would need to be tightly controlled for and show a direct mechanism of action. Especially since low calorie sweeteners vary so much in possible delivery and in structure (aspertame being an amino acid, sucralose a sugar alcohol, and using the powdered forms come mixed with maltodextrin, which is real sugar, but the liquid forms not having it).
lucas_membrane 8y ago
I remember seeing an article maybe a couple of months ago that turned up a possible cause / mechanism that operates via the liver, IIRC. If I read it correctly, this paper reports only a small average effect, just a small fraction of the difference between obesity and normal weight. But that is just an average effect, it might be that the artificial sweeteners have no effect on most but a large effect on a few.
arh68 8y ago
What would be required to disprove reverse causality? They discuss it more than twice > In other words, an outcome assessed at visit v was regressed on low-calorie sweetener history up to the visit prior to outcome assessment to rule out reverse causality. In Model 2, outcomes at visit v were regressed on low-calorie sweetener use history through visit v-1, hence minimizing reverse causality.
subcosmos 8y ago
It was shown over 10 years ago that sweet taste receptors are also expressed in the membranes of fat cells, and that artificial sweeteners activate these receptors in cell culture and drive up lipid storage.
- nxc18 8y ago
  Still doesn't mean anything until you prove it is significant in the end result (sweetener causing weight gain). I've lost 60 pounds this year drinking huge amounts of diet soda. I've made more progress than when I tried cutting out sweeteners entirely. There's a whole lot more going on with these issues than cell cultures and it's really counterproductive to pull random science out of a hat and say it proves your point. It only drives distrust in the whole concept of scientific reasoning.
  - zouhair 8y ago
    To be fair this is the toxic way scientists gets funded. You are forced to publish or die. So if you just sit and do research and not publish (even though your research is not finished)you are done for. The institution you are in will force you to publish or force you out if you don't abide by these shitty rules.
masonic 8y ago
Food diaries are notoriously unreliable as well.

ineedasername 8y ago

Came here to make exactly this point. It seems like the people already slim and petite are less likely to be drawn to such artificial additives, whereas many/most overweight people would at least be trying some "bare minimum" weight management through them.

lucas_membrane 8y ago
Yes, this shows how hard science can be. Studies have shown both that people who consume artificial sweeteners tend to gain a little weight (like this study) and that people who lose a lot of weight tend to be above-average consumers of artificial sweeteners. Best hope is that chemistry can untangle the mess.
- killjoywashere 8y ago
  Not only all the above, but where's the head-to-head comparison with sucrose (layman's 'sugar')-sweetened beverages?
natecavanaugh 8y ago
Not only that, but often people will justify a larger calorie consumption because the diet soda is free. I imagine that this sort of thing would need to be tightly controlled for and show a direct mechanism of action. Especially since low calorie sweeteners vary so much in possible delivery and in structure (aspertame being an amino acid, sucralose a sugar alcohol, and using the powdered forms come mixed with maltodextrin, which is real sugar, but the liquid forms not having it).

lucas_membrane 8y ago

I remember seeing an article maybe a couple of months ago that turned up a possible cause / mechanism that operates via the liver, IIRC. If I read it correctly, this paper reports only a small average effect, just a small fraction of the difference between obesity and normal weight. But that is just an average effect, it might be that the artificial sweeteners have no effect on most but a large effect on a few.

arh68 8y ago

What would be required to disprove reverse causality? They discuss it more than twice > In other words, an outcome assessed at visit v was regressed on low-calorie sweetener history up to the visit prior to outcome assessment to rule out reverse causality. In Model 2, outcomes at visit v were regressed on low-calorie sweetener use history through visit v-1, hence minimizing reverse causality.

subcosmos 8y ago

It was shown over 10 years ago that sweet taste receptors are also expressed in the membranes of fat cells, and that artificial sweeteners activate these receptors in cell culture and drive up lipid storage.

nxc18 8y ago
Still doesn't mean anything until you prove it is significant in the end result (sweetener causing weight gain). I've lost 60 pounds this year drinking huge amounts of diet soda. I've made more progress than when I tried cutting out sweeteners entirely. There's a whole lot more going on with these issues than cell cultures and it's really counterproductive to pull random science out of a hat and say it proves your point. It only drives distrust in the whole concept of scientific reasoning.
- zouhair 8y ago
  To be fair this is the toxic way scientists gets funded. You are forced to publish or die. So if you just sit and do research and not publish (even though your research is not finished)you are done for. The institution you are in will force you to publish or force you out if you don't abide by these shitty rules.

masonic 8y ago

Food diaries are notoriously unreliable as well.