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How often do you cross the Sahara desert in a hatchback? You don't. You go with specialized, 4 by 4 vehicles. This is a very, very niche application. How many p

How often do you cross the Sahara desert in a hatchback? You don't. You go with specialized, 4 by 4 vehicles. This is a very, very niche application. How many people make this crossing every day? How many people commute to work every day. It's not even in the same ballpark. Why are you trying to optimize for the very rare use-case? You can keep using your trucks in the Sahara desert for as long as there is gasoline being made and replacement parts. Not sure what you are worried about.

paganel 8y ago
> How often do you cross the Sahara desert in a hatchback? You don't That was an extreme example, I agree, not one of the best, just wanted to point out that using gasoline/diesel for vehicle transportation is a lot more failure-resistant compared to a power network. And you said nothing about my point about the entire continent of Africa and about post-disaster interventions in the rest of the world. The last thing you want to hear after your house has been blown out by an earthquake or a tsunami is that the first responders can't get to you and your family because the power network is down so that they cannot move their vehicles. And such events (I mean, major natural disasters followed by extensive power-cuts) do indeed happen pretty often even in developed countries.
- outworlder 8y ago
  > That was an extreme example, I agree, not one of the best, just wanted to point out that using gasoline/diesel for vehicle transportation is a lot more failure-resistant compared to a power network. It really isn't. It all depends on which kind of disaster we are talking about. In many cases you can't get a tanker where you need to, you have to rely on whatever fuel stockpiles you have. If you have a fuel stockpile, guess what you do? You run a generator. Generator produces electricity, you charge from that. Not ideal, but it's an emergency anyway. This is disregarding other forms of local generation, such as solar. > And you said nothing about my point about the entire continent of Africa The entire continent of africa is bigger than the areas of the United States, India, China and some of Europe combined. I can't meaningfully comment on that large an area. Some places have cities and electricity just fine. Some do not. The places that do not, I have some difficulty accepting that they will also have easy and cheap access to fuel. But assuming it is a problem, then fine. They will take longer to switch. > last thing you want to hear after your house has been blown out by an earthquake or a tsunami is that the first responders can't get to you and your family because the power network is down so that they cannot move their vehicles This is such an enormous strawman! Have you EVER seen an electric fire truck? I haven't(let alone made by VW). But assume there are electric first responders only. You know one thing electric vehicles don't care? It's where their electricity come from. Let's take an example from hospitals. In emergency situations, what do they do? They can't be without power during a surgery. So they have battery banks, backed up by a generator. I guess first responders would do similarly. And guess what, many already have power generators. Even AAA has generator trucks to rescue EVs. If you have electricity you use that(even with no fuel). If you have fuel, you use that – and you can also use electricity. How convenient.
  - paganel 8y ago
    > Some places have cities and electricity just fine. Some do not. Last I read stuff on the matter the country of South Africa had huge problems with keeping the power on 24/7, and we're talking about the most developed country on that continent. > And guess what, many already have power generators. Even AAA has generator trucks to rescue EVs. Power generators that use diesel/gasoline, you're supporting my point, which is that we'll never get over our reliance on this stuff. > You know one thing electric vehicles don't care? It's where their electricity come from. Until your electricity just stops coming from anywhere, at which point they do start to care. You seem to never have been in a situation where electricity is not a constant 24/7 "resource", so to speak. I did live at a time and in a place where that was not the case (meaning constant power cuts even in the middle of winter) and as such I've learned how "brittle" and fragile the power network is. Anyway, I'll leave this discussion as it is right now, I should have learned my lesson a long time ago never to enter into any discussion about EV on HN.
    - outworlder 8y ago
      > Power generators that use diesel/gasoline, you're supporting my point, which is that we'll never get over our reliance on this stuff. The point is, which you keep missing, is that EVs can run on electricity in whatever form. Have diesel available, but your car runs on gasoline only? Tough luck. Have "coal" electricity? It is as good as solar from the car's point of view. It's not the same for the environment, but neither are ICE cars. You are trying to argue about a hypothetical situation where there is fuel readily available, but for some reason, somehow, electricity cannot be produced from it. And there is also no electricity. In this hypothetical world, have generators ever been invented? Or solar panels? Also, if resources are so constrained, why are we even worrying about cars? There are more pressing concerns. Why do you keep ignoring solar? Wind? Have you seen any projects that bring power to poor communities in Africa? And have you seen how they DON'T rely on fuel tankers? It's all about microgrids! If they don't have sustainable power, they will NOT have refineries, or reliable fuel delivery. Last, why are we even arguing about places in Africa with no power? They are in no condition of importing the latest generation vehicles anyway! Heck, most people in the developed world are not even driving current generation vehicles (myself included). So even if all manufacturers stopped producing internal combustion engines today, it doesn't matter. There is a sizable fleet that's not going away any time soon. This is why this discussion is not productive. Can we focus in places where internal combustion engines are so ubiquitous that the are actually causing problems? Like India. Or China. Or the US. Not on some hypothetical gas station in the Sahara.
- Retric 8y ago
  In 20 years you could go full solar electric for such trips. If your talking serious off roading, add solar panels to the roof, and a trailer with even more. On roads we currently can do 3021 km averaging 81.2 km/h 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. : https://www.worldsolarchallenge.org/event-information/route_map https://www.worldsolarchallenge.org/event-information/route_.... For past times https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge PS: You convert a model 3 to Solar electric + battery and get ~30 miles of range for free every day. That’s very significant in most disaster situations, and much better than gas in a post apocalyptic world.
  - outworlder 8y ago
    The only drawback against EVs in a Mad Max world is that they are very technologically advanced. And require modern manufacturing techniques to keep running, mostly due to batteries. If it is a disaster spanning shorter time scales (years rather than decades), then I would expect EVs to keep driving as fuel shortages cripple the fleet. > PS: You convert a model 3 to Solar electric + battery and get ~30 miles of range for free every day Do you have more details? Last time I made a back of the napkin calculation its area wasn't enough for more than a couple of miles a day (assuming 4 miles per KWh).
    - Retric 8y ago
      4 miles per KWh, you could easily get 4m^2 of panels on the thing. Past that is tricky. 4m2 * 0.22 * 8h ~= 7 kWh per day but you can clearly do better, 7 * 4 = 28 miles per day. This is assuming high end 44% solar panels and optimal parking as ‘possible’. Basicly 185″ L x 73″ W = 8.7 m^2 in high end panels - windshield but covering sun roof. Then gaining back by covering sides and having a little overhang on sides. Then you’re talking closer to 8m2 * .44 * 8 = 28 kWh per day, or half that at a more reasonable 22% efficient. PS: Redoing my calculations and yea ~30 miles with 22% panels depending on how mad max the setup vs something more legal.
      - outworlder 8y ago
        Assuming you are not using this while driving – I imagine the drag would be ridiculous – and it can actually be stored in some way, it's not too terrible. You'd be driving at night, The Martian style.
- danans 8y ago
  > gasoline/diesel for vehicle transportation is a lot more failure-resistant compared to a power network. It depends on the disaster. Some disasters favor electric vehicles. Like charging your car from solar panels. Also, petrol's only advantages are energy density and quick refueling. Once those issues are surmounted, petrol will be worse on nearly every front. > The last thing you want to hear after your house has been blown out by an earthquake or a tsunami is that the first responders can't get to you So keep those emergency vehicles petrol powered. They are a drop in the bucket of fuel consumption vs cars and semi trucks. Progress in the latter needn't be held back by the former.
citiguy 8y ago
I’ve been to the Sahara. Believe it or not, there are roads there, and about as much traffic as when you drive across the American West.

paganel 8y ago

> How often do you cross the Sahara desert in a hatchback? You don't That was an extreme example, I agree, not one of the best, just wanted to point out that using gasoline/diesel for vehicle transportation is a lot more failure-resistant compared to a power network. And you said nothing about my point about the entire continent of Africa and about post-disaster interventions in the rest of the world. The last thing you want to hear after your house has been blown out by an earthquake or a tsunami is that the first responders can't get to you and your family because the power network is down so that they cannot move their vehicles. And such events (I mean, major natural disasters followed by extensive power-cuts) do indeed happen pretty often even in developed countries.

outworlder 8y ago
> That was an extreme example, I agree, not one of the best, just wanted to point out that using gasoline/diesel for vehicle transportation is a lot more failure-resistant compared to a power network. It really isn't. It all depends on which kind of disaster we are talking about. In many cases you can't get a tanker where you need to, you have to rely on whatever fuel stockpiles you have. If you have a fuel stockpile, guess what you do? You run a generator. Generator produces electricity, you charge from that. Not ideal, but it's an emergency anyway. This is disregarding other forms of local generation, such as solar. > And you said nothing about my point about the entire continent of Africa The entire continent of africa is bigger than the areas of the United States, India, China and some of Europe combined. I can't meaningfully comment on that large an area. Some places have cities and electricity just fine. Some do not. The places that do not, I have some difficulty accepting that they will also have easy and cheap access to fuel. But assuming it is a problem, then fine. They will take longer to switch. > last thing you want to hear after your house has been blown out by an earthquake or a tsunami is that the first responders can't get to you and your family because the power network is down so that they cannot move their vehicles This is such an enormous strawman! Have you EVER seen an electric fire truck? I haven't(let alone made by VW). But assume there are electric first responders only. You know one thing electric vehicles don't care? It's where their electricity come from. Let's take an example from hospitals. In emergency situations, what do they do? They can't be without power during a surgery. So they have battery banks, backed up by a generator. I guess first responders would do similarly. And guess what, many already have power generators. Even AAA has generator trucks to rescue EVs. If you have electricity you use that(even with no fuel). If you have fuel, you use that – and you can also use electricity. How convenient.
- paganel 8y ago
  > Some places have cities and electricity just fine. Some do not. Last I read stuff on the matter the country of South Africa had huge problems with keeping the power on 24/7, and we're talking about the most developed country on that continent. > And guess what, many already have power generators. Even AAA has generator trucks to rescue EVs. Power generators that use diesel/gasoline, you're supporting my point, which is that we'll never get over our reliance on this stuff. > You know one thing electric vehicles don't care? It's where their electricity come from. Until your electricity just stops coming from anywhere, at which point they do start to care. You seem to never have been in a situation where electricity is not a constant 24/7 "resource", so to speak. I did live at a time and in a place where that was not the case (meaning constant power cuts even in the middle of winter) and as such I've learned how "brittle" and fragile the power network is. Anyway, I'll leave this discussion as it is right now, I should have learned my lesson a long time ago never to enter into any discussion about EV on HN.
  - outworlder 8y ago
    > Power generators that use diesel/gasoline, you're supporting my point, which is that we'll never get over our reliance on this stuff. The point is, which you keep missing, is that EVs can run on electricity in whatever form. Have diesel available, but your car runs on gasoline only? Tough luck. Have "coal" electricity? It is as good as solar from the car's point of view. It's not the same for the environment, but neither are ICE cars. You are trying to argue about a hypothetical situation where there is fuel readily available, but for some reason, somehow, electricity cannot be produced from it. And there is also no electricity. In this hypothetical world, have generators ever been invented? Or solar panels? Also, if resources are so constrained, why are we even worrying about cars? There are more pressing concerns. Why do you keep ignoring solar? Wind? Have you seen any projects that bring power to poor communities in Africa? And have you seen how they DON'T rely on fuel tankers? It's all about microgrids! If they don't have sustainable power, they will NOT have refineries, or reliable fuel delivery. Last, why are we even arguing about places in Africa with no power? They are in no condition of importing the latest generation vehicles anyway! Heck, most people in the developed world are not even driving current generation vehicles (myself included). So even if all manufacturers stopped producing internal combustion engines today, it doesn't matter. There is a sizable fleet that's not going away any time soon. This is why this discussion is not productive. Can we focus in places where internal combustion engines are so ubiquitous that the are actually causing problems? Like India. Or China. Or the US. Not on some hypothetical gas station in the Sahara.
Retric 8y ago
In 20 years you could go full solar electric for such trips. If your talking serious off roading, add solar panels to the roof, and a trailer with even more. On roads we currently can do 3021 km averaging 81.2 km/h 8 a.m. to 5 p.m. : https://www.worldsolarchallenge.org/event-information/route_map https://www.worldsolarchallenge.org/event-information/route_.... For past times https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Solar_Challenge PS: You convert a model 3 to Solar electric + battery and get ~30 miles of range for free every day. That’s very significant in most disaster situations, and much better than gas in a post apocalyptic world.
- outworlder 8y ago
  The only drawback against EVs in a Mad Max world is that they are very technologically advanced. And require modern manufacturing techniques to keep running, mostly due to batteries. If it is a disaster spanning shorter time scales (years rather than decades), then I would expect EVs to keep driving as fuel shortages cripple the fleet. > PS: You convert a model 3 to Solar electric + battery and get ~30 miles of range for free every day Do you have more details? Last time I made a back of the napkin calculation its area wasn't enough for more than a couple of miles a day (assuming 4 miles per KWh).
  - Retric 8y ago
    4 miles per KWh, you could easily get 4m^2 of panels on the thing. Past that is tricky. 4m2 * 0.22 * 8h ~= 7 kWh per day but you can clearly do better, 7 * 4 = 28 miles per day. This is assuming high end 44% solar panels and optimal parking as ‘possible’. Basicly 185″ L x 73″ W = 8.7 m^2 in high end panels - windshield but covering sun roof. Then gaining back by covering sides and having a little overhang on sides. Then you’re talking closer to 8m2 * .44 * 8 = 28 kWh per day, or half that at a more reasonable 22% efficient. PS: Redoing my calculations and yea ~30 miles with 22% panels depending on how mad max the setup vs something more legal.
    - outworlder 8y ago
      Assuming you are not using this while driving – I imagine the drag would be ridiculous – and it can actually be stored in some way, it's not too terrible. You'd be driving at night, The Martian style.
danans 8y ago
> gasoline/diesel for vehicle transportation is a lot more failure-resistant compared to a power network. It depends on the disaster. Some disasters favor electric vehicles. Like charging your car from solar panels. Also, petrol's only advantages are energy density and quick refueling. Once those issues are surmounted, petrol will be worse on nearly every front. > The last thing you want to hear after your house has been blown out by an earthquake or a tsunami is that the first responders can't get to you So keep those emergency vehicles petrol powered. They are a drop in the bucket of fuel consumption vs cars and semi trucks. Progress in the latter needn't be held back by the former.

citiguy 8y ago

I’ve been to the Sahara. Believe it or not, there are roads there, and about as much traffic as when you drive across the American West.