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“Digital nomads”, like many modern “disruptive” industry’s, tend to ignore pesky things like laws Being found to be breaching your visa conditions, especially

“Digital nomads”, like many modern “disruptive” industry’s, tend to ignore pesky things like laws Being found to be breaching your visa conditions, especially in a pre-meditated way, is somewhat worse than being kicked out of an Airbnb. Tread carefully.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
I'm honestly surprised more "digital nomads" don't get caught at customs/border control with the advent of government surveillance of social media and LinkedIn. CBP Agent: Purpose of stay? Nomad: Pleasure CBP Agent: types It appears you work for a remote startup. Are you currently working for them and/or do you plan on continuing to work within our country? Maybe they let you stay if you're honest? Likely you're on the next flight out and you incur the possibility of a visa blacklist. Disclaimer: Have an associate who has been blacklisted from US entry due to lying to CBP. Don't lie at border control.
- qwerty456127 8y ago
  Can anybody explain how does this make any constructive sense?
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Part of it is the law hasn't caught up yet (and smart nomads can fly under the radar), the other part is there is very little benefit for allowing remote workers in your country. Maybe they contribute a bit in consuming local services and housing before moving on, but if things go wrong (ie you're stranded because some idiot's business failed without contingency plans), those benefits get wiped out. From the government's perspective, it's a razor thin margin policy endeavor. For you as a digital nomad, you think it's a great deal for them. For a government, they'll just work towards more tourism instead (which nets them greater ROI; way more tourists in the world compared to remote workers).
    - qwerty456127 8y ago
      I mean how does disallowing remote workers in your country make any sense.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - coldtea 8y ago
        A country is seen like a household. You get to allow or disallow whoever you like, based on how you want your country to be run. That's called sovereignty. It doesn't even matter if by coming in they'd made you more money, you could very well not want to get more money that way, but instead e.g. prefer your peace, cultural coherence, and lack of Starbucks.
    - mreome 8y ago
      How do the benefits to the host country get wiped out? The person is not allowed to legally work in the host country, and an appropriate visa specifically for this remote-work situation should become invalid once they were unemployed -- so they would just go, or get sent, back to their home country. The cost of the flight-home could be even part of the visa application fee!
      - toomuchtodo 8y ago
        You answered your own question (as I'm not aware of any visa application fees that include a one way ticket back to someone's home country as of today). Some types of visas require showing financial assets and the ability to support yourself, tourist visas (which digital nomads travel on) do not.
        mreome 8y ago
        I'm not arguing about what the current state of the laws are regarding tourist visas. I'm arguing against "there is very little benefit for allowing remote workers in your country." With a reasonably constructed visa program specifically for remote workers, a host country could see a lot of benefits from allowing remote workers with what seem like minimal risks.
  - gnopgnip 8y ago
    Remote workers are not paying local income taxes, but at some level they are benefiting from the services provided by local income taxes. Immigration policies restrict foreign workers in part to protect local workers, and tenuously you are still competing with other remote workers in the same country. Immigration policy as a whole has multiple, often conflicting goals, and digital nomads are an afterthought.
    - netsharc 8y ago
      Tourists don't pay local taxes but benefit from services like roads or police assistance, and they're welcome because they do bring income to a country when their hotel/restaurant/souvenir shop pays taxes. I think remote workers should be seen similarly.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        > I think remote workers should be seen similarly. And by all means talk to your congressman about passing such laws I for one will be not paying my income tax this year, as I bring income to the country when my landlord/restaurant/cinema pays taxes.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >CBP Agent: types It appears you work for a remote startup. Are you currently working for them and/or do you plan on continuing to work within our country? Maybe they let you stay if you're honest? Likely you're on the next flight out and you incur the possibility of a visa blacklist. More likely they could not care less, and welcome the money you'll spend in the country. Those "work" restrictions are for poor immigrants that they want to discourage coming in (the kind you see on Mexican border and such) not for first worlders with mucho dinero.
  - detaro 8y ago
    On the other hand, there's a bunch of stories about people traveling to present something at a conference getting into trouble because that the border guard said it needs a business visa of some kind. That's maybe different kind of work, but also something one would think not that important.
    - ghaff 8y ago
      Because that’s clearly business, especially if you’re being paid or sponsored. If you get a specifically tourist visa and then admit to being in the country on business there’s probably going to be an issue. If you're, say, a US citizen visas aren't required in a lot of cases and visas on arrival often don't distinguish between business and tourism.
      - isostatic 8y ago
        ESTAs do differentiate between business and tourism. “WB” or “WT”.
    - xkcd-sucks 8y ago
      Well yeah border guards are human and display the full range of human behavior
  - isostatic 8y ago
    That explains why there are no immigration restrictions between the Us and UK or France and Australia or whatever. Except there are.
- chineseGoogle 8y ago
  ...surveillance of social media and LinkedIn. Yeah, well, there’s your problem. Only the dumbest of the dumb operate a social media persona. Specifically because only the dumbest of the dumb give up control of their details, and dump them out in the open to get crawled and surveilled. It’s the low hanging fruit that will get popped for a LinkedIn (or other social) avatar. Word of mouth is the only professional channel that matters. It’s the only trustworthy channel that can be relied on in a professional context.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    “You have no online presence, that’s suspicious, step this way sir”
m348e912 8y ago
This is kind of a bullshit double standard. Billionaires and their family jetset around the world on a regular basis. Summers here, winters there. Maybe they have great accountants that account for the income that they accumulate during their extended stay and pay the appropriate income tax, something tells me that's not the case. I suppose I have made this a class argument, but my real point is the way has already been paved.
- tedunangst 8y ago
  Do you owe local income tax just for being some place when stock you own pays a dividend? I'm not a billionaire, and neither have I ever paid income taxes while traveling for various accruals.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    Who said it's only the "dividend"? Billionaires don't tend to their business affairs when they're abroad?
    - gamblor956 8y ago
      No. They have good lawyers who advise them not to, and they follow that advice do they can stay billionaires.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        Lol. Billionaires have all kinds of offices-away-from-home, complete with secretaries, accountants, and other employees. It's just that no state would bust them on a "no business visa" issue for that, they want their money and investments.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

I'm honestly surprised more "digital nomads" don't get caught at customs/border control with the advent of government surveillance of social media and LinkedIn. CBP Agent: Purpose of stay? Nomad: Pleasure CBP Agent: types It appears you work for a remote startup. Are you currently working for them and/or do you plan on continuing to work within our country? Maybe they let you stay if you're honest? Likely you're on the next flight out and you incur the possibility of a visa blacklist. Disclaimer: Have an associate who has been blacklisted from US entry due to lying to CBP. Don't lie at border control.

qwerty456127 8y ago
Can anybody explain how does this make any constructive sense?
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Part of it is the law hasn't caught up yet (and smart nomads can fly under the radar), the other part is there is very little benefit for allowing remote workers in your country. Maybe they contribute a bit in consuming local services and housing before moving on, but if things go wrong (ie you're stranded because some idiot's business failed without contingency plans), those benefits get wiped out. From the government's perspective, it's a razor thin margin policy endeavor. For you as a digital nomad, you think it's a great deal for them. For a government, they'll just work towards more tourism instead (which nets them greater ROI; way more tourists in the world compared to remote workers).
  - qwerty456127 8y ago
    I mean how does disallowing remote workers in your country make any sense.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - coldtea 8y ago
      A country is seen like a household. You get to allow or disallow whoever you like, based on how you want your country to be run. That's called sovereignty. It doesn't even matter if by coming in they'd made you more money, you could very well not want to get more money that way, but instead e.g. prefer your peace, cultural coherence, and lack of Starbucks.
  - mreome 8y ago
    How do the benefits to the host country get wiped out? The person is not allowed to legally work in the host country, and an appropriate visa specifically for this remote-work situation should become invalid once they were unemployed -- so they would just go, or get sent, back to their home country. The cost of the flight-home could be even part of the visa application fee!
    - toomuchtodo 8y ago
      You answered your own question (as I'm not aware of any visa application fees that include a one way ticket back to someone's home country as of today). Some types of visas require showing financial assets and the ability to support yourself, tourist visas (which digital nomads travel on) do not.
      - mreome 8y ago
        I'm not arguing about what the current state of the laws are regarding tourist visas. I'm arguing against "there is very little benefit for allowing remote workers in your country." With a reasonably constructed visa program specifically for remote workers, a host country could see a lot of benefits from allowing remote workers with what seem like minimal risks.
- gnopgnip 8y ago
  Remote workers are not paying local income taxes, but at some level they are benefiting from the services provided by local income taxes. Immigration policies restrict foreign workers in part to protect local workers, and tenuously you are still competing with other remote workers in the same country. Immigration policy as a whole has multiple, often conflicting goals, and digital nomads are an afterthought.
  - netsharc 8y ago
    Tourists don't pay local taxes but benefit from services like roads or police assistance, and they're welcome because they do bring income to a country when their hotel/restaurant/souvenir shop pays taxes. I think remote workers should be seen similarly.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      > I think remote workers should be seen similarly. And by all means talk to your congressman about passing such laws I for one will be not paying my income tax this year, as I bring income to the country when my landlord/restaurant/cinema pays taxes.
coldtea 8y ago
>CBP Agent: types It appears you work for a remote startup. Are you currently working for them and/or do you plan on continuing to work within our country? Maybe they let you stay if you're honest? Likely you're on the next flight out and you incur the possibility of a visa blacklist. More likely they could not care less, and welcome the money you'll spend in the country. Those "work" restrictions are for poor immigrants that they want to discourage coming in (the kind you see on Mexican border and such) not for first worlders with mucho dinero.
- detaro 8y ago
  On the other hand, there's a bunch of stories about people traveling to present something at a conference getting into trouble because that the border guard said it needs a business visa of some kind. That's maybe different kind of work, but also something one would think not that important.
  - ghaff 8y ago
    Because that’s clearly business, especially if you’re being paid or sponsored. If you get a specifically tourist visa and then admit to being in the country on business there’s probably going to be an issue. If you're, say, a US citizen visas aren't required in a lot of cases and visas on arrival often don't distinguish between business and tourism.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      ESTAs do differentiate between business and tourism. “WB” or “WT”.
  - xkcd-sucks 8y ago
    Well yeah border guards are human and display the full range of human behavior
- isostatic 8y ago
  That explains why there are no immigration restrictions between the Us and UK or France and Australia or whatever. Except there are.
chineseGoogle 8y ago
...surveillance of social media and LinkedIn. Yeah, well, there’s your problem. Only the dumbest of the dumb operate a social media persona. Specifically because only the dumbest of the dumb give up control of their details, and dump them out in the open to get crawled and surveilled. It’s the low hanging fruit that will get popped for a LinkedIn (or other social) avatar. Word of mouth is the only professional channel that matters. It’s the only trustworthy channel that can be relied on in a professional context.
- isostatic 8y ago
  “You have no online presence, that’s suspicious, step this way sir”

m348e912 8y ago

This is kind of a bullshit double standard. Billionaires and their family jetset around the world on a regular basis. Summers here, winters there. Maybe they have great accountants that account for the income that they accumulate during their extended stay and pay the appropriate income tax, something tells me that's not the case. I suppose I have made this a class argument, but my real point is the way has already been paved.

tedunangst 8y ago
Do you owe local income tax just for being some place when stock you own pays a dividend? I'm not a billionaire, and neither have I ever paid income taxes while traveling for various accruals.
- coldtea 8y ago
  Who said it's only the "dividend"? Billionaires don't tend to their business affairs when they're abroad?
  - gamblor956 8y ago
    No. They have good lawyers who advise them not to, and they follow that advice do they can stay billionaires.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      Lol. Billionaires have all kinds of offices-away-from-home, complete with secretaries, accountants, and other employees. It's just that no state would bust them on a "no business visa" issue for that, they want their money and investments.