5 ms·

Former copy editor here, would not recommend this approach for writing anything non-artistic. Imagine a coder or engineer following this recommendation: no plan

Former copy editor here, would not recommend this approach for writing anything non-artistic. Imagine a coder or engineer following this recommendation: no plan, no structure, just throwing ideas willy-nilly. Eventually, you then have to sift through all the ideas, find what's good and what gels, and then re-write to make it coherent, narrative, and logical. You'll probably incur a lot of technical debt and overhead with this approach. However, if you go into the initial phase with a goal/structure in mind, you're going to be much closer to the final product after your first effort. Many, many writers use outlines/plans. Something that happens a lot in research is that articles are formulaic, they generally have the same sorts of content, so writing them actually becomes easier once familiarity with the structure is obtained. I would say your approach could be useful for either an artistic format OR for someone who is severely writers' blocked. If you truly have no idea what to write, something is better than nothing. But generally speaking, having a plan/outline is very useful.

nicky0 8y ago
As a coder I do a lot of my best work with a beer or two.
- flyingfences 8y ago
  Gotta hit that Ballmer Peak. https://www.xkcd.com/323/ https://www.xkcd.com/323/
- vishbar 8y ago
  There's definitely a different style of development, in my experience. After a few beers or when very sleep-deprived, I find myself avoiding "analysis paralysis" and just getting something written, even if it's not super elegant. There can definitely be a benefit to doing that, though I wouldn't recommend slamming shots at 9am before the workday starts!
- onemoresoop 8y ago
  I second that on a POC.
- sifoobar 8y ago
  There are better, less poisonous and destructive, drugs. Is it really worth sacrificing your health for? It doesn't even taste nice once you cut through the cultural programming to pretend otherwise.
  - SafetyThird 8y ago
    Having a beer or two is not "sacrificing your health". And if liking the taste of alcoholic drinks counts as being "programmed", then so does every other preference and desire human beings have.
    - sifoobar 8y ago
      But it is, alcohol is very poisonous; which is why you feel like shit and loose your memory when you overdo it, and why it's so hard to hit just the right amount of poisoning to feel funny without feeling sick. Drinking poison that tastes like shit doesn't really happen without outside pressure. That's not true of every other preference and desire. But keep lying to yourself, not my problem.
    - danillonunes 8y ago
      Having a beer or two occasionally won’t kill you. But making it a working routine, even with such a small quantity that won’t even make you drunk, will definitely have some impact in your health in the long-term.
  - booleandilemma 8y ago
    It doesn't even taste nice Citation needed. Maybe you just haven’t tried a good beer yet.
    - sifoobar 8y ago
      Oh, I've drunk more quality beer than most. Stop for six months and try again if you don't believe me, once the body has detoxed it's going to start putting up a fight. I can't even smell alcohol these days, even at the levels of normal beer; it smells like gasoline.
bobjob 8y ago
But how do you form a plan/outline? -> You do prototyping and prototyping can be done in a chaotic way. And YES, after that you have to clean up that stuff.
porpoisely 8y ago
I mostly agree with your points. But coding or programming is as much artistic as it is engineering. It isn't an accident that the historical center of tech is also the center of the drug. Not just performative drugs but also hallucinogenic. https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/07/09/hacking-the-brain-silicon-valley-entrepreneurs-turn-to-fasting-and-smart-drugs/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/07/09/hacking-the-brain-sil...
- ticmasta 8y ago
  >> It isn't an accident that the historical center of tech is also the center of the drug This assertion is ridiculous; it could most certainly be a coincidence. I'd suggest the numerous locations around the world known for a period of drug experimentation that are not technology hot beds suggests it is.
reacweb 8y ago
For coders, it is the equivalent of MVP. The coder gather pieces of code and/or documentation to have something to show. The feedback helps to finalize narrative and make stuff coherent.
mbostleman 8y ago
I'm not sure about that. When coding, like other comments about writing, I can feel much more relaxed and ultimately more creative when I have a couple of drinks during the process. That doesn't mean that I have "no plan, no structure, just throwing ideas willy-nilly.". Maybe that's what I would do if I was falling over, black out drunk - but I don't think that's the spirit of what we're talking about here - or at least it's not the way I take it. To the contrary, my plans and structures can often come together more easily in the relaxed, somewhat inebriated state that a little alcohol provides.
pmoriarty 8y ago
"Imagine a coder or engineer following this recommendation: no plan, no structure, just throwing ideas willy-nilly." The only thing writers have in common is that they each have their own way of working. Some plot meticulously, others don't plot at all. Some want to know where they're going, others prefer discovery and surprise. Stephen King does not plot because he finds it boring. He does not want to know what's going to happen. Here's Flannery O'Connor: "When I started writing that story, I didn't know there was going to be a Ph.D. with a wooden leg in it. I merely found myself one morning writing a description of two women I knew something about, and before I realized it, I had equipped one of them with a daughter with a wooden leg. I brought in the Bible salesman, but I had no idea what I was going to do with him. I didn't know he was going to steal that wooden leg until ten or twelve lines before he did it, but when I found out that this was what was going to happen, I realized it was inevitable." https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/01/21/specials/carver-shoptalk.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/01/21/s...

nicky0 8y ago

As a coder I do a lot of my best work with a beer or two.

flyingfences 8y ago
Gotta hit that Ballmer Peak. https://www.xkcd.com/323/ https://www.xkcd.com/323/
vishbar 8y ago
There's definitely a different style of development, in my experience. After a few beers or when very sleep-deprived, I find myself avoiding "analysis paralysis" and just getting something written, even if it's not super elegant. There can definitely be a benefit to doing that, though I wouldn't recommend slamming shots at 9am before the workday starts!
onemoresoop 8y ago
I second that on a POC.
sifoobar 8y ago
There are better, less poisonous and destructive, drugs. Is it really worth sacrificing your health for? It doesn't even taste nice once you cut through the cultural programming to pretend otherwise.
- SafetyThird 8y ago
  Having a beer or two is not "sacrificing your health". And if liking the taste of alcoholic drinks counts as being "programmed", then so does every other preference and desire human beings have.
  - sifoobar 8y ago
    But it is, alcohol is very poisonous; which is why you feel like shit and loose your memory when you overdo it, and why it's so hard to hit just the right amount of poisoning to feel funny without feeling sick. Drinking poison that tastes like shit doesn't really happen without outside pressure. That's not true of every other preference and desire. But keep lying to yourself, not my problem.
  - danillonunes 8y ago
    Having a beer or two occasionally won’t kill you. But making it a working routine, even with such a small quantity that won’t even make you drunk, will definitely have some impact in your health in the long-term.
- booleandilemma 8y ago
  It doesn't even taste nice Citation needed. Maybe you just haven’t tried a good beer yet.
  - sifoobar 8y ago
    Oh, I've drunk more quality beer than most. Stop for six months and try again if you don't believe me, once the body has detoxed it's going to start putting up a fight. I can't even smell alcohol these days, even at the levels of normal beer; it smells like gasoline.

bobjob 8y ago

But how do you form a plan/outline? -> You do prototyping and prototyping can be done in a chaotic way. And YES, after that you have to clean up that stuff.

porpoisely 8y ago

I mostly agree with your points. But coding or programming is as much artistic as it is engineering. It isn't an accident that the historical center of tech is also the center of the drug. Not just performative drugs but also hallucinogenic. https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/07/09/hacking-the-brain-silicon-valley-entrepreneurs-turn-to-fasting-and-smart-drugs/ https://www.mercurynews.com/2016/07/09/hacking-the-brain-sil...

ticmasta 8y ago
>> It isn't an accident that the historical center of tech is also the center of the drug This assertion is ridiculous; it could most certainly be a coincidence. I'd suggest the numerous locations around the world known for a period of drug experimentation that are not technology hot beds suggests it is.

reacweb 8y ago

For coders, it is the equivalent of MVP. The coder gather pieces of code and/or documentation to have something to show. The feedback helps to finalize narrative and make stuff coherent.

mbostleman 8y ago

I'm not sure about that. When coding, like other comments about writing, I can feel much more relaxed and ultimately more creative when I have a couple of drinks during the process. That doesn't mean that I have "no plan, no structure, just throwing ideas willy-nilly.". Maybe that's what I would do if I was falling over, black out drunk - but I don't think that's the spirit of what we're talking about here - or at least it's not the way I take it. To the contrary, my plans and structures can often come together more easily in the relaxed, somewhat inebriated state that a little alcohol provides.

pmoriarty 8y ago

"Imagine a coder or engineer following this recommendation: no plan, no structure, just throwing ideas willy-nilly." The only thing writers have in common is that they each have their own way of working. Some plot meticulously, others don't plot at all. Some want to know where they're going, others prefer discovery and surprise. Stephen King does not plot because he finds it boring. He does not want to know what's going to happen. Here's Flannery O'Connor: "When I started writing that story, I didn't know there was going to be a Ph.D. with a wooden leg in it. I merely found myself one morning writing a description of two women I knew something about, and before I realized it, I had equipped one of them with a daughter with a wooden leg. I brought in the Bible salesman, but I had no idea what I was going to do with him. I didn't know he was going to steal that wooden leg until ten or twelve lines before he did it, but when I found out that this was what was going to happen, I realized it was inevitable." https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/01/21/specials/carver-shoptalk.html https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/01/01/21/s...