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And it didn't work. Some people were aware of this. A few took the time to read/discuss/think about it. A minuscule fraction of passionate people acted on it.

And it didn't work. Some people were aware of this. A few took the time to read/discuss/think about it. A minuscule fraction of passionate people acted on it. And the rest of the world took the path of least resistance, as usual. People don't shape society willingly. They mostly let life happen to them. Even when you see them protesting, it's the consequence of an emotional reaction and a group effect, not the reflect of their deep personnal vision of life. They have none. It's why people keep gaining weight, comming back to a violent spouse or voting again for the politicians that just lied in their face. I have no idea what to do about that. Education works a bit, but it's so slow and easy to destroy. And meanwhile, it's very unfair for the minority trying hard to make things better. They pay a high price, with no thanks, and little benefits except the hope the others won't screw up things more.

Santosh83 8y ago
Be the change you want and keep talking about it. I've stuck to Firefox through ups and downs ever since I found out about it back during version 1 point something. Internet Explorer proved that behemoths can and will fall, given enough time to shoot themselves in the foot. Firefox just needs to retain its 10% somehow.
- zymhan 8y ago
  I've stuck with it and preached it and told people why Google is just going to repeat IE's history with Chrome, and my tech friends still mostly use Chrome. There is something about A) what everyone else is doing, and B) inertia, that is just too difficult to overcome without some sudden significant change.
  - Santosh83 8y ago
    The single biggest advantage of Chrome is that it's bundled as the default, non-removable browser on the largest mobile OS in the world: Android. And nearly all those people then expect to use the same browser on laptops and desktops and even here it is often pre-installed by OEM. If Firefox had somehow had this clinching advantage in an alternate reality, they would be the Chrome now. The actual performance and technical differences between the two browsers are by no stretch of imagination deal-breaking. But Google's marketing and bundling has been decisive. I just hope Mozilla doesn't abandon Gecko but sticks this fight out.
    - ginko 8y ago
      I would hope Mozilla will eventually retire Gecko and switch to Servo.
    - O1111OOO 8y ago
      > The single biggest advantage of Chrome is that it's bundled as the default, non-removable browser on the largest mobile OS in the world: Android. I'm still upset that Mozilla balked on Firefox OS[0]. It would have made a good ChromeOS competitor on laptops and tablets. I would have opted for a Firefox OS tablet instead of Android as a secondary device. A privacy-focused tablet would have been amazing. Honestly don't see any reason why Mozilla couldn't restart the project on larger-screen devices - skipping the phone phase for a period. Especially now that they have their rust-powered Quantum Browser showing the world what it can do. They could always do phones later on when the platform matures. I think they are failing to see that solutions are about ecosystems. Few can deny they have a rich, browser-based, ecosystem. They are still thinking in legacy terms - a single-use application. I believe they have the monetary means (and the talent) to enter hardware (or via Kickstarter). Their worst enemy... they may be a little old-school, corporate management-heavy on top. Their leadership let Firefox stagnate, the performance suffered the entire time Chrome was taking everyone's market share. We're talking years of neglect. > If Firefox had somehow had this clinching advantage in an alternate reality. The alternate reality... Google invests $22 million in the ported version of Fire OS, KaiOS[1]. They are helping to keep alive (and integrating themselves) into the very OS Mozilla created (and abandoned). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS [1] https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/27/google-kaios/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/27/google-kaios/
    - Scarbutt 8y ago
      Firefox was losing to chrome long before android became so big, Mozilla dropped the ball here, they were too late on mobile.
      - wutbrodo 8y ago
        Yea, parent comment is definitely a but of revisionist history. I stayed with Firefox longer than most, but the performance gap just became so massive that I really couldn't justify remaining on it. This was back when smartphones themselves were pretty new, let alone during android's dominance
- magduf 8y ago
  >Be the change you want and keep talking about it. The OP already talked about the problem with this approach to things: >"...it's very unfair for the minority trying hard to make things better. They pay a high price, with no thanks, and little benefits except the hope the others won't screw up things more." The people who stick their necks out trying to make a change usually end up sacrificing a lot and not getting anything in return, even if their efforts are successful. Basically, they're "taking one for the team". Luckily, with browser choices, it isn't nearly that bad; it's not that hard to switch browsers on a whim, after all, but for bigger issues (like political change, as the OP was referring to to a point, with his mention of protesting), "being the change you want" is usually not a winning strategy at a personal level, and a much more successful strategy is to simply go where the grass is greener.
aduitsis 8y ago
I'm sure a lot of people around here won't be able to hear you over the sound of how Firefox somehow doesn't feel quite right on their macs.
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  Yeah... I dont quite understand how Firefox does invest into integration with third-party password managers, but not the one built into MacOS. Arguably Safari usage is comparable to Firefox in terms of staving off a Chromium monoculture. Safari usage on iOS is actually far more important right now to ensurage some semblance of compatibility.
  - vetinari 8y ago
    The password manager integrations are extensions made by the respective third-party password managers, not by Mozilla. If you want to use Keychain, it is either up to Apple to make an extension, or someone volunteering.
  - Yoric 8y ago
    There used to be an add-on that let users integrate the Keychain in Firefox. I seem to remember that pretty much nobody used it, which doesn't speak well of the usefulness of this integration. Also, Mozilla is working on its own cross-platform password manager/password sharing between devices. I'm not sure what the intended policy is wrt password sharing (there may be passwords that I only want to have on one device), but this should be more useful than the Keychain, which doesn't even let me move my passwords from one machine to the next one without arcane incantations.
  - pseudalopex 8y ago
    Chrome also removed Keychain support. Apple restricted access to the necessary APIs.
js8 8y ago
As a long time Firefox user, let me offer a different perspective. Upgrading any application is a chore, and you never know what will break or whether you lose your data. People don't want to do it, and yet they are forced to do it by companies (and open source is even worse). So if you can avoid it, you avoid it. I'll leave up to you to decide if Firefox haven't destroyed its own market share by confusing changes to UI and breaking backwards compatibility.
- sametmax 8y ago
  Most people don't even know what an URL is, so I don't think they even think about their browser that hard.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - wutbrodo 8y ago
    I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here. Wouldn't those people be _more_ beholden to UI stability? If you understand what's under the hood, it takes a little time for your muscle memory to adjust to UI changes but it's not exactly confusing. That's decidedly not the case for the group you're describing.
shaki-dora 8y ago
That’s hard to prove or disprove without having an alternate universe ready for A/B testing. Although, frankly, I can’t shake the feeling I’ve been living in the B-branch for, say, the last two years. If so, let me just say: if your results are not yet conclusive, please ask your statisticians for what “multi-armed bandit” means to them, then shoot them if the quizzically look at you. You may even skip the question. Back on point: I know many people who use Firefox for “ideological” reasons. In fact, anybody who still used FF as of 6 months ago arguably fell in that group, save some extreme cases of inertia. But, even more tittilating: Firefox seems to be once again be competitive wrt performance. That may just be its salvation, and not a moment too early to make it dramatic.
- pm215 8y ago
  Why would it be "extreme" inertia to still be using Firefox? If it's never felt like it's failing to do the job of being a web browser, then not switching is inertia, sure, but it's not extreme...
- nchie 8y ago
  What are you even talking about? You're making it sound like Firefox has ever been a lot worse than Chrome, but that's far from the truth. I've used both quite a lot and I've always preferred Firefox, even _without_ considering the privacy aspects. I still use Chrome on my laptop as Firefox doesn't support decent pinch zooming (that's more or less my only complaint), but for desktop usage I definitely choose Firefox over Chrome.
  - RussianCow 8y ago
    Not the OP, but when Chrome came out, it was leaps and bounds ahead of Firefox in terms of performance, and it took Firefox many years (until just recently, with Quantum) to catch up. I personally endured it, but it was definitely hard after having used Chrome for a short while, and I don't blame anyone for making the switch back then. Most users don't care about features; they just want a browser that works well.
- magduf 8y ago
kuroguro 8y ago
Recently finished moving away from most google stuff. Seeing how they are slowly grabbing more and more user data really scared the shit out of me (android location gathering, auto logging in to chrome from gmail, syncing all password data etc). Swapping the browser was the easy part. Not using google search and moving away from my gmail address that I've had since gmail was released were harder habits to break. Setting up a google-less android (lineageOS + microG) was a real PITA for a few weeks as I kept running into new problems and things not working properly. I don't see how anyone not into tech could pull it off.
- antonyh 8y ago
  I dumped Chrome, stopping 'Googling' and moved to DuckDuckGo, installed uBlock Matrix so I could block as much of Google as possible (damn you reCaptcha), but it's gmail that's the tie-in. Changing email address is super hard. As for Android, I took the easy option - switched to iOS. I'd have preferred a third choice, but there's nothing viable at the moment. It's hard going but worth it for the privacy, and I agree it's not realistic for those not fully into tech. The world needs more choices for browser, more choices in mobile too. At least there's a few options for computing devices - Windows is a horrible privacy hole IMO, Apple and MacOS is a premium option but seems more private and secure, then there's Google (no comment). Linux can be a huge time sink and hard going but having run it on both desktop and laptop it's a good choice - but for the expensive commerce softwares that only run on Mac or Windows thanks to companies that make 'pro' offerings... for me its Adobe, Capture One, Reason - none of which offer Linux variants or work on Wine properly. Part of me wishes the EU to legislate more, but that's horrible in other ways.
legends2k 8y ago
> People don't shape society willing… Logged in just to say, “what a paragraph, haven't read anything with such clarity lately.” Thanks for it. Yes, I'm using Firefox since 2.0 and never changed once.

Santosh83 8y ago

Be the change you want and keep talking about it. I've stuck to Firefox through ups and downs ever since I found out about it back during version 1 point something. Internet Explorer proved that behemoths can and will fall, given enough time to shoot themselves in the foot. Firefox just needs to retain its 10% somehow.

zymhan 8y ago
I've stuck with it and preached it and told people why Google is just going to repeat IE's history with Chrome, and my tech friends still mostly use Chrome. There is something about A) what everyone else is doing, and B) inertia, that is just too difficult to overcome without some sudden significant change.
- Santosh83 8y ago
  The single biggest advantage of Chrome is that it's bundled as the default, non-removable browser on the largest mobile OS in the world: Android. And nearly all those people then expect to use the same browser on laptops and desktops and even here it is often pre-installed by OEM. If Firefox had somehow had this clinching advantage in an alternate reality, they would be the Chrome now. The actual performance and technical differences between the two browsers are by no stretch of imagination deal-breaking. But Google's marketing and bundling has been decisive. I just hope Mozilla doesn't abandon Gecko but sticks this fight out.
  - ginko 8y ago
    I would hope Mozilla will eventually retire Gecko and switch to Servo.
  - O1111OOO 8y ago
    > The single biggest advantage of Chrome is that it's bundled as the default, non-removable browser on the largest mobile OS in the world: Android. I'm still upset that Mozilla balked on Firefox OS[0]. It would have made a good ChromeOS competitor on laptops and tablets. I would have opted for a Firefox OS tablet instead of Android as a secondary device. A privacy-focused tablet would have been amazing. Honestly don't see any reason why Mozilla couldn't restart the project on larger-screen devices - skipping the phone phase for a period. Especially now that they have their rust-powered Quantum Browser showing the world what it can do. They could always do phones later on when the platform matures. I think they are failing to see that solutions are about ecosystems. Few can deny they have a rich, browser-based, ecosystem. They are still thinking in legacy terms - a single-use application. I believe they have the monetary means (and the talent) to enter hardware (or via Kickstarter). Their worst enemy... they may be a little old-school, corporate management-heavy on top. Their leadership let Firefox stagnate, the performance suffered the entire time Chrome was taking everyone's market share. We're talking years of neglect. > If Firefox had somehow had this clinching advantage in an alternate reality. The alternate reality... Google invests $22 million in the ported version of Fire OS, KaiOS[1]. They are helping to keep alive (and integrating themselves) into the very OS Mozilla created (and abandoned). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firefox_OS [1] https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/27/google-kaios/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/27/google-kaios/
  - Scarbutt 8y ago
    Firefox was losing to chrome long before android became so big, Mozilla dropped the ball here, they were too late on mobile.
    - wutbrodo 8y ago
      Yea, parent comment is definitely a but of revisionist history. I stayed with Firefox longer than most, but the performance gap just became so massive that I really couldn't justify remaining on it. This was back when smartphones themselves were pretty new, let alone during android's dominance
magduf 8y ago
>Be the change you want and keep talking about it. The OP already talked about the problem with this approach to things: >"...it's very unfair for the minority trying hard to make things better. They pay a high price, with no thanks, and little benefits except the hope the others won't screw up things more." The people who stick their necks out trying to make a change usually end up sacrificing a lot and not getting anything in return, even if their efforts are successful. Basically, they're "taking one for the team". Luckily, with browser choices, it isn't nearly that bad; it's not that hard to switch browsers on a whim, after all, but for bigger issues (like political change, as the OP was referring to to a point, with his mention of protesting), "being the change you want" is usually not a winning strategy at a personal level, and a much more successful strategy is to simply go where the grass is greener.

aduitsis 8y ago

I'm sure a lot of people around here won't be able to hear you over the sound of how Firefox somehow doesn't feel quite right on their macs.

shaki-dora 8y ago
Yeah... I dont quite understand how Firefox does invest into integration with third-party password managers, but not the one built into MacOS. Arguably Safari usage is comparable to Firefox in terms of staving off a Chromium monoculture. Safari usage on iOS is actually far more important right now to ensurage some semblance of compatibility.
- vetinari 8y ago
  The password manager integrations are extensions made by the respective third-party password managers, not by Mozilla. If you want to use Keychain, it is either up to Apple to make an extension, or someone volunteering.
- Yoric 8y ago
  There used to be an add-on that let users integrate the Keychain in Firefox. I seem to remember that pretty much nobody used it, which doesn't speak well of the usefulness of this integration. Also, Mozilla is working on its own cross-platform password manager/password sharing between devices. I'm not sure what the intended policy is wrt password sharing (there may be passwords that I only want to have on one device), but this should be more useful than the Keychain, which doesn't even let me move my passwords from one machine to the next one without arcane incantations.
- pseudalopex 8y ago
  Chrome also removed Keychain support. Apple restricted access to the necessary APIs.

js8 8y ago

As a long time Firefox user, let me offer a different perspective. Upgrading any application is a chore, and you never know what will break or whether you lose your data. People don't want to do it, and yet they are forced to do it by companies (and open source is even worse). So if you can avoid it, you avoid it. I'll leave up to you to decide if Firefox haven't destroyed its own market share by confusing changes to UI and breaking backwards compatibility.

sametmax 8y ago
Most people don't even know what an URL is, so I don't think they even think about their browser that hard.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- wutbrodo 8y ago
  I'm not sure I understand the point you're making here. Wouldn't those people be _more_ beholden to UI stability? If you understand what's under the hood, it takes a little time for your muscle memory to adjust to UI changes but it's not exactly confusing. That's decidedly not the case for the group you're describing.

shaki-dora 8y ago

That’s hard to prove or disprove without having an alternate universe ready for A/B testing. Although, frankly, I can’t shake the feeling I’ve been living in the B-branch for, say, the last two years. If so, let me just say: if your results are not yet conclusive, please ask your statisticians for what “multi-armed bandit” means to them, then shoot them if the quizzically look at you. You may even skip the question. Back on point: I know many people who use Firefox for “ideological” reasons. In fact, anybody who still used FF as of 6 months ago arguably fell in that group, save some extreme cases of inertia. But, even more tittilating: Firefox seems to be once again be competitive wrt performance. That may just be its salvation, and not a moment too early to make it dramatic.

pm215 8y ago
Why would it be "extreme" inertia to still be using Firefox? If it's never felt like it's failing to do the job of being a web browser, then not switching is inertia, sure, but it's not extreme...
nchie 8y ago
What are you even talking about? You're making it sound like Firefox has ever been a lot worse than Chrome, but that's far from the truth. I've used both quite a lot and I've always preferred Firefox, even _without_ considering the privacy aspects. I still use Chrome on my laptop as Firefox doesn't support decent pinch zooming (that's more or less my only complaint), but for desktop usage I definitely choose Firefox over Chrome.
- RussianCow 8y ago
  Not the OP, but when Chrome came out, it was leaps and bounds ahead of Firefox in terms of performance, and it took Firefox many years (until just recently, with Quantum) to catch up. I personally endured it, but it was definitely hard after having used Chrome for a short while, and I don't blame anyone for making the switch back then. Most users don't care about features; they just want a browser that works well.
magduf 8y ago

kuroguro 8y ago

Recently finished moving away from most google stuff. Seeing how they are slowly grabbing more and more user data really scared the shit out of me (android location gathering, auto logging in to chrome from gmail, syncing all password data etc). Swapping the browser was the easy part. Not using google search and moving away from my gmail address that I've had since gmail was released were harder habits to break. Setting up a google-less android (lineageOS + microG) was a real PITA for a few weeks as I kept running into new problems and things not working properly. I don't see how anyone not into tech could pull it off.

antonyh 8y ago
I dumped Chrome, stopping 'Googling' and moved to DuckDuckGo, installed uBlock Matrix so I could block as much of Google as possible (damn you reCaptcha), but it's gmail that's the tie-in. Changing email address is super hard. As for Android, I took the easy option - switched to iOS. I'd have preferred a third choice, but there's nothing viable at the moment. It's hard going but worth it for the privacy, and I agree it's not realistic for those not fully into tech. The world needs more choices for browser, more choices in mobile too. At least there's a few options for computing devices - Windows is a horrible privacy hole IMO, Apple and MacOS is a premium option but seems more private and secure, then there's Google (no comment). Linux can be a huge time sink and hard going but having run it on both desktop and laptop it's a good choice - but for the expensive commerce softwares that only run on Mac or Windows thanks to companies that make 'pro' offerings... for me its Adobe, Capture One, Reason - none of which offer Linux variants or work on Wine properly. Part of me wishes the EU to legislate more, but that's horrible in other ways.

legends2k 8y ago

> People don't shape society willing… Logged in just to say, “what a paragraph, haven't read anything with such clarity lately.” Thanks for it. Yes, I'm using Firefox since 2.0 and never changed once.