3 ms·

I understand now why you might think i'm being rude and i apologize for it. I don't think you lied, and i believe that you are sincere about what you say. And a

by nec4b 8y ago

I understand now why you might think i'm being rude and i apologize for it. I don't think you lied, and i believe that you are sincere about what you say. And all that i'm saying back to you is that you still don't have any proof that that person was being racist. You chose that uncharitable narrative, it is not self evident from what you your self have told us.

wpietri 8y ago
That's a non-apology apology. [1] You have avoided actually admitting that you were being rude. If you'd like people to think your apologies sincere, you have to recognize your bad behavior, not just put it on somebody else's interpretation. Second, I never said he was racist -- that's your interpretation. I specifically avoided that term because when white people are experiencing white fragility [1], which is certain to happen in a large group discussion like this, then they immediately cast any incident in into the common post-Civil-Rights-era frame of "racist=bad person" and start defending their fellow white person, who surely must be good. What I talked about was unconscious racial bias. Third, your demanding "proof" is unreasonable. What would count? Should I have fMRI scans done of the person's brain under various stimuli? Even that wouldn't be enough; you could argue he might harbor racial bias, but that it wasn't active at the time he grilled my intern. I just looked at the last few pages of your comments here, and you have offered all sorts of reasonable opinions without ever giving a bit of proof. You are bringing up a standard that couldn't possibly apply and that you don't hew to yourself. You might ask yourself why. Fourth, I included evidence. First, there was the testimony of the one witness who, even though he's still in college, has had to become an expert in America's still pervasive and demonstrable white bias against black people. Second, there was my testimony as to the nature of the environment and the rareness of an event like this. Third, as I mentioned, I talked about this with my boss. In all of our judgments, under the preponderance of the evidence, this was an unconscious racial bias incident. Nobody at the company thought otherwise, including HR and the black employee group, who deal with this sort of thing regularly at that company. Fifth, it's not my job to prove anything to internet randos. It's your job to understand America's racial dynamics and how this fits in before commenting. I told this story knowing full well that I'd get salty replies from people who would react with instant denial to any description of a bias incident caused by someone like them (a well-meaning white tech dude). Why would they do that? Well, if you have studied American racial dynamics, you'll already know the answer to that. And if you haven't, I recommend that you read one or two of the four books I've already recommended in this discussion. You'll learn something. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology [2] https://www.amazon.com/White-Fragility-People-About-Racism/dp/0807047414 https://www.amazon.com/White-Fragility-People-About-Racism/d...
- nec4b 8y ago
  Why is talking and asking a person about his actions unreasonable? You are basically badmouthing that person here for the whole world to see how bad he is!
  - wpietri 8y ago
    Oh, now we're on to "badmouthing". With no acknowledgement of any of my points, including the fact that you were rude and dodged apologizing. Or of your apparent lack of understanding of the topic you're so eager to discuss. You should note that you're very invested in defending the honor of a white person that is even to me totally anonymous. And then go read DiAngelo's book.

by nec4b 8y ago

wpietri 8y ago

That's a non-apology apology. [1] You have avoided actually admitting that you were being rude. If you'd like people to think your apologies sincere, you have to recognize your bad behavior, not just put it on somebody else's interpretation. Second, I never said he was racist -- that's your interpretation. I specifically avoided that term because when white people are experiencing white fragility [1], which is certain to happen in a large group discussion like this, then they immediately cast any incident in into the common post-Civil-Rights-era frame of "racist=bad person" and start defending their fellow white person, who surely must be good. What I talked about was unconscious racial bias. Third, your demanding "proof" is unreasonable. What would count? Should I have fMRI scans done of the person's brain under various stimuli? Even that wouldn't be enough; you could argue he might harbor racial bias, but that it wasn't active at the time he grilled my intern. I just looked at the last few pages of your comments here, and you have offered all sorts of reasonable opinions without ever giving a bit of proof. You are bringing up a standard that couldn't possibly apply and that you don't hew to yourself. You might ask yourself why. Fourth, I included evidence. First, there was the testimony of the one witness who, even though he's still in college, has had to become an expert in America's still pervasive and demonstrable white bias against black people. Second, there was my testimony as to the nature of the environment and the rareness of an event like this. Third, as I mentioned, I talked about this with my boss. In all of our judgments, under the preponderance of the evidence, this was an unconscious racial bias incident. Nobody at the company thought otherwise, including HR and the black employee group, who deal with this sort of thing regularly at that company. Fifth, it's not my job to prove anything to internet randos. It's your job to understand America's racial dynamics and how this fits in before commenting. I told this story knowing full well that I'd get salty replies from people who would react with instant denial to any description of a bias incident caused by someone like them (a well-meaning white tech dude). Why would they do that? Well, if you have studied American racial dynamics, you'll already know the answer to that. And if you haven't, I recommend that you read one or two of the four books I've already recommended in this discussion. You'll learn something. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-apology_apology [2] https://www.amazon.com/White-Fragility-People-About-Racism/dp/0807047414 https://www.amazon.com/White-Fragility-People-About-Racism/d...

nec4b 8y ago
Why is talking and asking a person about his actions unreasonable? You are basically badmouthing that person here for the whole world to see how bad he is!
- wpietri 8y ago
  Oh, now we're on to "badmouthing". With no acknowledgement of any of my points, including the fact that you were rude and dodged apologizing. Or of your apparent lack of understanding of the topic you're so eager to discuss. You should note that you're very invested in defending the honor of a white person that is even to me totally anonymous. And then go read DiAngelo's book.