9 ms·

Ask HN: As programmers, why are we still going to the office?

38 points by aecorredor 8y ago

I’m stuck in bad traffic and started thinking that the status quo for the office is pretty unnecessary.

slics 8y ago
Without office space there is no networking. Without networking there is no real means to find a better job when the time is to move on. Humans are meant to collaborate and share perspectives. But again, it depends on what career path you choose on the next venture.
- lolsal 8y ago
  If you can’t network without office space, what have I been doing the last 10 years?
shujutech 8y ago
Because employers is hiring your service base on time and not according to delivery. Need to devise a system where programmers are paid base on deliveries and not time. It's also more fair to be paid base on deliveries instead of time.
- bootsz 8y ago
  Yeah. If I was paid the same for the actual output I produce I estimate I could hold the equivalent of at least 3 desk jobs simulatenously and triple my income. I suspect the same is true for many people. Large companies are not very efficient at utilizing people. Ironically I think companies in which people work remotely a lot tend to be the most results-oriented and less tolerant of people wasting time...because there is no way to keep up an illusion of productivity with “butts in seats”. So what you end up with is quite contrary to the myth of remote workers being unproductive.
honkycat 8y ago
It takes time expertise and investment to actually effectively track programmer productivity. A lot of organizations don't have the resources to do that, so time in seat and making sure your workers seem productive is a decent alternative.
jodrellblank 8y ago
As people in a world of machines and computers and extremely efficient farming, why are we still working 8hrs a day 5 days a week for food and shelter?
- craftyguy 8y ago
  Because any sort of talk about "redistribution of wealth and resources" conjures up deep fears of "communism" and "socialism" in older folks who were around when that was a popular thing.
  - jodrellblank 8y ago
    Things I didn't bring into it at all. Why isn't it more common for people to live on 2days/week work instead of 5days/week? And I mean lots of people, and without the current stigma of "living in a van by the river" or the niche "tiny house" people" who have been accused of wanting the cost of living in a trailer park without the stigma of it - well, why shouldn't they want that? And .. why shouldn't everyone want basic housing and food, for a basic price, as a normal thing to do?
    - bGl2YW5j 8y ago
      I'm in complete agreement with you. The modern work system needs to change! We all deserve to be actually living lives instead of being forced into 5 day/week jobs if we don't want to!
      - vondur 8y ago
        No one is forcing you to work.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      > Things I didn't bring into it at all. Well it's pretty much implied. Not all industries can survive with employees working 2days/week. It would require 2.5x more employees to get the same number of worker hours in a 5 day period if every worker was limited to 2 days of work. Each of those workers would presumably be paid/compensated enough during those 2 days to be able to not only survive but also have disposable income (~2.5x pay per day in those 2 days). So 2.5x more workers, all making 2.5x pay/day each. It would be incredibly expensive and likely cause massive inflation. The only way it might be feasible is with some redistribution of wealth.
craftyguy 8y ago
I actually enjoy regularly seeing the people I work with, and working in the office is somehow less distracting sometimes than working at home (where the desire to do anything but work is a bit higher). Also, this title should have a 'Ask HN'.
- umichguy 8y ago
  Same here, I enjoy seeing my colleagues as well. But I prefer something like 2/3 days in the office and rest from home. This arrangement works better for me, covers all my needs/preferences.
- matt_the_bass 8y ago
  It’s refeshing to hear this opinion on HN. I feel like every comment is “remote only or it sucks!” Yes, I find huge value in flexible work times. Yes I find huge value in ability to work remote. But there is a lot more to most business than just implementing code. Those components are hard to do well with remote only (IMHO). Especially so if there is a physical component to the business/product. Personally I like the human interaction and I like the separation of work and home.
towndrunk 8y ago
One word: communication Software engineering or programming, whatever you want to call it is a social thing.
- Koshkin 8y ago
  It is no longer necessary to relocate your body just to communicate with other people. Manufacturing (of material things) is still another story, but pervasive use of remote control, virtual reality, and robotics might change even that.
dkobia 8y ago
As a remote worker of over 12 years I'm definitely enjoying getting back to in person interaction, especially during the colder months when people socialize a lot less. A mix of going to an office and working at home is hard to beat.
- drstewart 8y ago
  As someone who just went back to the office after working remote, I agree. Companies need to allow working remote more often. I don't need to be remote 100%, but having the option to work for a week or two somewhere else is great.
user68858788 8y ago
Does any engineer over mid-level actually still code for most of their day? I'm sure there are exceptions, but most senior engineers I've worked with spend most of their time communicating with other teams, laying out architecture, and code reviews.
- jdc 8y ago
  This thread is about programmers.
- warmblanket 8y ago
  I’m sure that depends on company culture. What you describe in a way sounds like big company culture. I am curious how this works in mostly-remote companies.
steve_taylor 8y ago
Managers want to literally see what they’re spending all that money on.
- ShorsHammer 8y ago
  Middle management also appear less useful when there's only 4 underlings in the office. A lot of the inertia to remote work I've seen was mainly about managerial ego/job security rather than any actual logistical challenge.
  - umichguy 8y ago
    So true. At my last job, one of my managers used to complain that he wasn't "seeing" more of his people in the office. Never mind the fact that the stuff actually got done on time and under budget. He had a wife and 3 kids at home and office was his "refuge," and came into the office every single day. So, he wanted people around him. He was also a smooth-talking backstabbing insert choice curse word here. But that's a story for another day.
piinbinary 8y ago
I think it can be boiled down to: companies see potential costs but no potential advantages (for them).
lostgame 8y ago
I know I’m certainly not. I work for a major bank in Canada in their iOS application and we have one of the most robust remote working situations I’ve seen.
- vtesucks 8y ago
  Compared to?
  - AnimalMuppet 8y ago
    To anything else lostgame has seen, I presume. That's literally what the post said.
cyberpvnk 8y ago
I'm still sitting in an office at an open team table, all Commons, no caves. #sad
- warmblanket 8y ago
  A truly horrible environment for anyone with anything resembling ADHD. And probably those without difficulty concentrating as well.
bowlich 8y ago
As a remote worker of 6 years whose recently spent two weeks having to commute in the city. Thank god for my 30 foot commute from bed to across the hallway into the office. Really wish the government would start forcing employers to pay employees for their average commute times. Would really encourage allowing remote work or relocation into smaller residential areas. It's hard to fathom why being stuck in traffic isn't considered work. Certainly feels like it.
- niij 8y ago
  > Really wish the government would start forcing employers I understand your sentiment, but why is it that government coercion is necessary? You're allowed to run your own businesses as you see fit. If you work for someone else and don't like the arrangement, then fix it.
  - antoineMoPa 8y ago
    But businesses generally don't care about employees stuck in traffic, pollution, global warming, accidents, etc.
    - niij 8y ago
      That's right. If you disagree with it, the great thing is you're able to start your own business and run it the way you see fit. It's a lot easier to point out what businesses are doing wrong than to start and run your own "the right way".
      - UK-Al05 8y ago
        Because it's an externality, no company will take on an externality willingly
  - bowlich 8y ago
    We already have that coercion in place. In the U.S., labor law [1] says if you work on-site a company is required to put you on the clock when you commute from your duty station to a remote client site. (I've seen companies try to get around this by having people commute directly from home to the client site and then claiming that was their normal "commute") So just redefine "duty station" from "office" to "place of residence." After all, the commute is being done for the company's benefit, not the employee. [1]: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime
amingilani 8y ago
I've been working remotely for 2 years now and have begun to crave an on-site job. I'm rejecting remote offers nowadays because I really want to move to a different country and work with great engineers in an office where we can talk in person and not over Slack all the time. It gets tedious and lonely when the nerdiest person I know around me is me. I can't even talk to my friends or family about the clever hacks I did because they couldn't begin to understand the complexity. I mean, sure, I give dumbed down versions all the time: but they're always met with a customary pat on the back (with a smile) and we move onto another topic that we all know very well.
- PenguinCoder 8y ago
  Wow, this is surprising to me. I am the exact opposite position. I am rejecting offers that want relocation or NOT offering remote work. I get my social interaction from a few close friends and feel way less anxiety about not having to play office politics to get ahead. As another commentor said, it's especially a huge benefit to me in terms of getting my own te back instead of having a dreadful commute as well.
  - amingilani 8y ago
    I suppose there are a lot of other factors at play here as well. You probably still have other physical developer friends, while I'm self-taught and graduated from an unrelated field. My friends aren't technical. I hate commuting as well, but I also feel super unsafe in my country. An acquaintance of mine was running an educational platform online teaching basic and advanced blockchain development courses; their offices were raided because our federal government's investigative wing saw "Bitcoin". Every RTI requires a lawsuit to compel compliance. And so on.
    - PenguinCoder 8y ago
      I do not have any developer friends in the real world. The closest technical minded friends I have are at the level of IT helpdesk. That's okay to me; their technical chops aren't why they are my friends :)
vikingcaffiene 8y ago
Been working remotely for 7 years. Started to think I might want to work in an office so I interviewed for an on site position. On the drive there I got stuck in traffic. On the drive back the same. Cured me of that idea real fast.
tachikomagenius 8y ago
Was a remote programmer but I thought I needed human interaction to keep me sane but I think the horrible traffic is doing the opposite of my goal. Suddenly, doing remote work and feeling like a shut-in is so much more comfortable.
zorga 8y ago
Many of us aren't, haven't worked anywhere but home in nearly a decade; full time remote work is great.
FahadUddin92 8y ago
One word: "hygiene." --> Only reason for taking bath daily. --> Shaving weekly. --> Keeping yourself clean and presentable.
aecorredor 8y ago
Thanks for all the replies everybody. My bad for missing the “Ask HN” part, kind of posted this pretty fast. Yeah, I think that for me the pro that I give to working on site is the social aspect of it. But as far as productivity, I get much more done when I’m working from home. I also think that less people driving for god knows how many hours a year would also bring a million other collateral benefits for everybody. I live in Miami and I think about the infrastructure that we have for the number of people that live here, and it just seems crazy that it hasn’t improved at all in the 8 years I’ve been here. Hopefully autonomous cars + hyperloop really take off pretty soon. Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts on this random end of the day question ;)
chrisbennet 8y ago
I’m a consultant and I usually work alone in my own office (near home) but it’s nice to visit clients where I work on site for a few weeks once in a while. I would hate it if there was a big commute though.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
hn17 8y ago
Why we are going to the office? In most cases I saw it's because management wants to have more control, more performance and possibility to change our environment in any moment. Also most of the employers want us to work same amount of time daily and for all of the week. If it changes it will only if goverment will change the law or something big happens. It is simply more profitable for employers and they have upper hand for most of the people.
dev_north_east 8y ago
To be social? That's what I like about it most.

38 points by aecorredor 8y ago

I’m stuck in bad traffic and started thinking that the status quo for the office is pretty unnecessary.

Without office space there is no networking. Without networking there is no real means to find a better job when the time is to move on. Humans are meant to collaborate and share perspectives. But again, it depends on what career path you choose on the next venture.

lolsal 8y ago
If you can’t network without office space, what have I been doing the last 10 years?

shujutech 8y ago

Because employers is hiring your service base on time and not according to delivery. Need to devise a system where programmers are paid base on deliveries and not time. It's also more fair to be paid base on deliveries instead of time.

bootsz 8y ago
Yeah. If I was paid the same for the actual output I produce I estimate I could hold the equivalent of at least 3 desk jobs simulatenously and triple my income. I suspect the same is true for many people. Large companies are not very efficient at utilizing people. Ironically I think companies in which people work remotely a lot tend to be the most results-oriented and less tolerant of people wasting time...because there is no way to keep up an illusion of productivity with “butts in seats”. So what you end up with is quite contrary to the myth of remote workers being unproductive.

honkycat 8y ago

It takes time expertise and investment to actually effectively track programmer productivity. A lot of organizations don't have the resources to do that, so time in seat and making sure your workers seem productive is a decent alternative.

jodrellblank 8y ago

As people in a world of machines and computers and extremely efficient farming, why are we still working 8hrs a day 5 days a week for food and shelter?

craftyguy 8y ago
Because any sort of talk about "redistribution of wealth and resources" conjures up deep fears of "communism" and "socialism" in older folks who were around when that was a popular thing.
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  Things I didn't bring into it at all. Why isn't it more common for people to live on 2days/week work instead of 5days/week? And I mean lots of people, and without the current stigma of "living in a van by the river" or the niche "tiny house" people" who have been accused of wanting the cost of living in a trailer park without the stigma of it - well, why shouldn't they want that? And .. why shouldn't everyone want basic housing and food, for a basic price, as a normal thing to do?
  - bGl2YW5j 8y ago
    I'm in complete agreement with you. The modern work system needs to change! We all deserve to be actually living lives instead of being forced into 5 day/week jobs if we don't want to!
    - vondur 8y ago
      No one is forcing you to work.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > Things I didn't bring into it at all. Well it's pretty much implied. Not all industries can survive with employees working 2days/week. It would require 2.5x more employees to get the same number of worker hours in a 5 day period if every worker was limited to 2 days of work. Each of those workers would presumably be paid/compensated enough during those 2 days to be able to not only survive but also have disposable income (~2.5x pay per day in those 2 days). So 2.5x more workers, all making 2.5x pay/day each. It would be incredibly expensive and likely cause massive inflation. The only way it might be feasible is with some redistribution of wealth.

craftyguy 8y ago

I actually enjoy regularly seeing the people I work with, and working in the office is somehow less distracting sometimes than working at home (where the desire to do anything but work is a bit higher). Also, this title should have a 'Ask HN'.

umichguy 8y ago
Same here, I enjoy seeing my colleagues as well. But I prefer something like 2/3 days in the office and rest from home. This arrangement works better for me, covers all my needs/preferences.
matt_the_bass 8y ago
It’s refeshing to hear this opinion on HN. I feel like every comment is “remote only or it sucks!” Yes, I find huge value in flexible work times. Yes I find huge value in ability to work remote. But there is a lot more to most business than just implementing code. Those components are hard to do well with remote only (IMHO). Especially so if there is a physical component to the business/product. Personally I like the human interaction and I like the separation of work and home.

towndrunk 8y ago

One word: communication Software engineering or programming, whatever you want to call it is a social thing.

Koshkin 8y ago
It is no longer necessary to relocate your body just to communicate with other people. Manufacturing (of material things) is still another story, but pervasive use of remote control, virtual reality, and robotics might change even that.

dkobia 8y ago

As a remote worker of over 12 years I'm definitely enjoying getting back to in person interaction, especially during the colder months when people socialize a lot less. A mix of going to an office and working at home is hard to beat.

drstewart 8y ago
As someone who just went back to the office after working remote, I agree. Companies need to allow working remote more often. I don't need to be remote 100%, but having the option to work for a week or two somewhere else is great.

user68858788 8y ago

Does any engineer over mid-level actually still code for most of their day? I'm sure there are exceptions, but most senior engineers I've worked with spend most of their time communicating with other teams, laying out architecture, and code reviews.

jdc 8y ago
This thread is about programmers.
warmblanket 8y ago
I’m sure that depends on company culture. What you describe in a way sounds like big company culture. I am curious how this works in mostly-remote companies.

steve_taylor 8y ago

Managers want to literally see what they’re spending all that money on.

ShorsHammer 8y ago
Middle management also appear less useful when there's only 4 underlings in the office. A lot of the inertia to remote work I've seen was mainly about managerial ego/job security rather than any actual logistical challenge.
- umichguy 8y ago
  So true. At my last job, one of my managers used to complain that he wasn't "seeing" more of his people in the office. Never mind the fact that the stuff actually got done on time and under budget. He had a wife and 3 kids at home and office was his "refuge," and came into the office every single day. So, he wanted people around him. He was also a smooth-talking backstabbing insert choice curse word here. But that's a story for another day.

piinbinary 8y ago

I think it can be boiled down to: companies see potential costs but no potential advantages (for them).

lostgame 8y ago

I know I’m certainly not. I work for a major bank in Canada in their iOS application and we have one of the most robust remote working situations I’ve seen.

vtesucks 8y ago
Compared to?
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  To anything else lostgame has seen, I presume. That's literally what the post said.

cyberpvnk 8y ago

I'm still sitting in an office at an open team table, all Commons, no caves. #sad

warmblanket 8y ago
A truly horrible environment for anyone with anything resembling ADHD. And probably those without difficulty concentrating as well.

bowlich 8y ago

As a remote worker of 6 years whose recently spent two weeks having to commute in the city. Thank god for my 30 foot commute from bed to across the hallway into the office. Really wish the government would start forcing employers to pay employees for their average commute times. Would really encourage allowing remote work or relocation into smaller residential areas. It's hard to fathom why being stuck in traffic isn't considered work. Certainly feels like it.

niij 8y ago
> Really wish the government would start forcing employers I understand your sentiment, but why is it that government coercion is necessary? You're allowed to run your own businesses as you see fit. If you work for someone else and don't like the arrangement, then fix it.
- antoineMoPa 8y ago
  But businesses generally don't care about employees stuck in traffic, pollution, global warming, accidents, etc.
  - niij 8y ago
    That's right. If you disagree with it, the great thing is you're able to start your own business and run it the way you see fit. It's a lot easier to point out what businesses are doing wrong than to start and run your own "the right way".
    - UK-Al05 8y ago
      Because it's an externality, no company will take on an externality willingly
- bowlich 8y ago
  We already have that coercion in place. In the U.S., labor law [1] says if you work on-site a company is required to put you on the clock when you commute from your duty station to a remote client site. (I've seen companies try to get around this by having people commute directly from home to the client site and then claiming that was their normal "commute") So just redefine "duty station" from "office" to "place of residence." After all, the commute is being done for the company's benefit, not the employee. [1]: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/workhours/traveltime

amingilani 8y ago

I've been working remotely for 2 years now and have begun to crave an on-site job. I'm rejecting remote offers nowadays because I really want to move to a different country and work with great engineers in an office where we can talk in person and not over Slack all the time. It gets tedious and lonely when the nerdiest person I know around me is me. I can't even talk to my friends or family about the clever hacks I did because they couldn't begin to understand the complexity. I mean, sure, I give dumbed down versions all the time: but they're always met with a customary pat on the back (with a smile) and we move onto another topic that we all know very well.

PenguinCoder 8y ago
Wow, this is surprising to me. I am the exact opposite position. I am rejecting offers that want relocation or NOT offering remote work. I get my social interaction from a few close friends and feel way less anxiety about not having to play office politics to get ahead. As another commentor said, it's especially a huge benefit to me in terms of getting my own te back instead of having a dreadful commute as well.
- amingilani 8y ago
  I suppose there are a lot of other factors at play here as well. You probably still have other physical developer friends, while I'm self-taught and graduated from an unrelated field. My friends aren't technical. I hate commuting as well, but I also feel super unsafe in my country. An acquaintance of mine was running an educational platform online teaching basic and advanced blockchain development courses; their offices were raided because our federal government's investigative wing saw "Bitcoin". Every RTI requires a lawsuit to compel compliance. And so on.
  - PenguinCoder 8y ago
    I do not have any developer friends in the real world. The closest technical minded friends I have are at the level of IT helpdesk. That's okay to me; their technical chops aren't why they are my friends :)

vikingcaffiene 8y ago

Been working remotely for 7 years. Started to think I might want to work in an office so I interviewed for an on site position. On the drive there I got stuck in traffic. On the drive back the same. Cured me of that idea real fast.

tachikomagenius 8y ago

Was a remote programmer but I thought I needed human interaction to keep me sane but I think the horrible traffic is doing the opposite of my goal. Suddenly, doing remote work and feeling like a shut-in is so much more comfortable.

zorga 8y ago

Many of us aren't, haven't worked anywhere but home in nearly a decade; full time remote work is great.

FahadUddin92 8y ago

One word: "hygiene." --> Only reason for taking bath daily. --> Shaving weekly. --> Keeping yourself clean and presentable.

aecorredor 8y ago

Thanks for all the replies everybody. My bad for missing the “Ask HN” part, kind of posted this pretty fast. Yeah, I think that for me the pro that I give to working on site is the social aspect of it. But as far as productivity, I get much more done when I’m working from home. I also think that less people driving for god knows how many hours a year would also bring a million other collateral benefits for everybody. I live in Miami and I think about the infrastructure that we have for the number of people that live here, and it just seems crazy that it hasn’t improved at all in the 8 years I’ve been here. Hopefully autonomous cars + hyperloop really take off pretty soon. Anyway, thanks again for your thoughts on this random end of the day question ;)

chrisbennet 8y ago

I’m a consultant and I usually work alone in my own office (near home) but it’s nice to visit clients where I work on site for a few weeks once in a while. I would hate it if there was a big commute though.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

hn17 8y ago

Why we are going to the office? In most cases I saw it's because management wants to have more control, more performance and possibility to change our environment in any moment. Also most of the employers want us to work same amount of time daily and for all of the week. If it changes it will only if goverment will change the law or something big happens. It is simply more profitable for employers and they have upper hand for most of the people.

dev_north_east 8y ago

To be social? That's what I like about it most.