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> Wat? just deactivate before you rm. Ok sure, but starting clean is still a 2 step process (deactivate, remove) > Please do not talk about things you clearly

by umvi 8y ago

> Wat? just deactivate before you rm. Ok sure, but starting clean is still a 2 step process (deactivate, remove) > Please do not talk about things you clearly don't know well enough (which is patently the case if you can't remember freeze and deactivate). Yes, I openly admit I do not know python's package management/virtualenv stuff well enough. And I don't care to learn either, because I don't use it enough for the investment to be worth it. My point still stands that for each javascript package management task that needs accomplished, you need 2-3x as many commands to accomplish the same thing in python. > You got any stats on that, or is it just your opinion? My opinion, of course, but shared by the dozens of people who upvoted my OP. > Because to me, the completely counter-intuitive --save parameter is much more painful to remember. In what way is --save counter-intuitive? If anything pip freeze is counter intuitive. How does it know what to save? Does it just save everything you've ever installed? What if you don't want to save everything, just a few of them? Also, --save and --save-dev allow you to segregate developer dependencies from production dependencies. Is there a way to do that with python? Again, just a guess, but it's probably going to be an unintuitive 3-4 step process that I'll no doubt find on stack overflow.

toyg 8y ago
> Yes, I openly admit I do not know python's package management/virtualenv stuff well enough. And still, you are here trying to measure the length of your "commands" with others' "commands". > My opinion, of course, but shared by the dozens of people who upvoted my OP. Ah great, engineering by acclamation. That usually ends well. That's how we got pipenv, btw: a popular developer stood up and declared "I'll fix it!", to general acclaim from the Powers That Be... and then things broke harder, and here we are. > for each javascript package management task that needs accomplished you need 2-3x as many That's precisely the perspective that led us to the mess that is pipenv: "npm is the model, we should all be like npm". Except npm fundamentally serves only a few specific needs, and was built on the lawless prairies of an ecosystem with limited aims, no stdlib, and without 28 years of accumulated legacy practices; whereas python has been pulled in every direction for literally decades, and now has to herd all that legacy into something more coherent, slowly (because this or that constituency will be ready to scream about breaking compatibility, as we've just had to endure for about 10 years with py3) and correctly - to avoid ending up in situations like the periodic breakage that happens in npm because this or that package has misbehaved. > In what way is --save counter-intuitive? "I've already told you to install, why should I repeat the concept? Are you really so dumb a 'manager' that you would ignore what you just installed?" And btw, Stack Overflow says --save is actually obsolete since 2013 at least [1], so it looks like you don't know npm very well either. Maybe we should just give up and build an AI that learns development from SO, and find ourselves more meaningful jobs. [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19578796/what-is-the-save-option-for-npm-install https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19578796/what-is-the-sav...
- umvi 8y ago
  > And btw, Stack Overflow says --save is actually obsolete since 2013 at least [1], so it looks like you don't know npm very well either. "edited Sep 18 at 18:15" `5.0.0` was introduced May 25, 2017 [1]. Most linux distributions have not picked it up yet in their repos. Ubuntu 18.04 (released this year) is still on npm 3.5. It's unreasonable to expect a developer to be familiar with the bleeding edge, especially when existing projects are locked into using older versions. I don't know why you are being so contentious about this. I actually love Python and hate JavaScript. But in my opinion, JavaScript has the superior package management setup which is why I am rooting for PEP 582. [1] https://github.com/npm/npm/tags?after=v5.0.2 https://github.com/npm/npm/tags?after=v5.0.2

by umvi 8y ago

toyg 8y ago

> Yes, I openly admit I do not know python's package management/virtualenv stuff well enough. And still, you are here trying to measure the length of your "commands" with others' "commands". > My opinion, of course, but shared by the dozens of people who upvoted my OP. Ah great, engineering by acclamation. That usually ends well. That's how we got pipenv, btw: a popular developer stood up and declared "I'll fix it!", to general acclaim from the Powers That Be... and then things broke harder, and here we are. > for each javascript package management task that needs accomplished you need 2-3x as many That's precisely the perspective that led us to the mess that is pipenv: "npm is the model, we should all be like npm". Except npm fundamentally serves only a few specific needs, and was built on the lawless prairies of an ecosystem with limited aims, no stdlib, and without 28 years of accumulated legacy practices; whereas python has been pulled in every direction for literally decades, and now has to herd all that legacy into something more coherent, slowly (because this or that constituency will be ready to scream about breaking compatibility, as we've just had to endure for about 10 years with py3) and correctly - to avoid ending up in situations like the periodic breakage that happens in npm because this or that package has misbehaved. > In what way is --save counter-intuitive? "I've already told you to install, why should I repeat the concept? Are you really so dumb a 'manager' that you would ignore what you just installed?" And btw, Stack Overflow says --save is actually obsolete since 2013 at least [1], so it looks like you don't know npm very well either. Maybe we should just give up and build an AI that learns development from SO, and find ourselves more meaningful jobs. [1] https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19578796/what-is-the-save-option-for-npm-install https://stackoverflow.com/questions/19578796/what-is-the-sav...

umvi 8y ago
> And btw, Stack Overflow says --save is actually obsolete since 2013 at least [1], so it looks like you don't know npm very well either. "edited Sep 18 at 18:15" `5.0.0` was introduced May 25, 2017 [1]. Most linux distributions have not picked it up yet in their repos. Ubuntu 18.04 (released this year) is still on npm 3.5. It's unreasonable to expect a developer to be familiar with the bleeding edge, especially when existing projects are locked into using older versions. I don't know why you are being so contentious about this. I actually love Python and hate JavaScript. But in my opinion, JavaScript has the superior package management setup which is why I am rooting for PEP 582. [1] https://github.com/npm/npm/tags?after=v5.0.2 https://github.com/npm/npm/tags?after=v5.0.2