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I can say that I've had countless interactions over my life exactly as you've described, which is why I've essentially resigned to accepting it. It's a much, mu

I can say that I've had countless interactions over my life exactly as you've described, which is why I've essentially resigned to accepting it. It's a much, much larger societal issue than just the tech industry or even American culture in general. It stems from 400 years of subjugation, oppression, and vilification of an entire race by the global capitalist system to support slavery and colonization, creating a deeply ingrained sense that "black === bad" in all things. The famous baby doll experiment used in Brown v. Board of Education is a perfect example of what I mean here [0]. I'm not sure that reporting individual incidents of this to an HR department and causing resentment and division between people over these things is really worthwhile. It's just a fact of life as much as any other overarching, long running cultural tradition. Things are changing, but it's simply a generational issue that we are left with the legacy of institutionalized racism, purposely designed to legitimize industrial scale human exploitation. [0] https://www.history.com/news/brown-v-board-of-education-doll-experiment https://www.history.com/news/brown-v-board-of-education-doll...

wpietri 8y ago
Yeah, I totally agree that this is a multigenerational problem. And I totally get why you're resigned to it. It isn't your job to clean up a problem created by white people, and you having to do that work is just another burden of racism. But personally, I plan to raise a ruckus like this whenever I get the chance. MLK made a strong argument for creating a "constructive tension" [1]. It was his theory that the necessary changes don't just happen, but require the discomfort of the people with the power to fix things. If my intern had wanted to let things lie, I certainly would have. But since he was ok with me reporting it, I saw it as my duty. To society certainly, but also to the company. They had a serious diversity effort and worked hard to give interns a good experience. I would have been negligent had I let an unconscious mistake from one employee undermine that. Plus, as a white dude, it's easier for me to advocate for these changes. Not only because of my default privilege, but because I'm seen as a disinterested party. I never get accused of "playing the race card" or "misandry" when I come out against some racist or sexist nonsense. So I hope more white people will put their shoulders to the wheel here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail
throw27145 8y ago
Imagine that instead of black person, there would be some other visually distinct person. Say, white person in football uniform. Or asian woman in kimono. Or disabled person in the electric scooter. They would likely get the same "third degree" treatment. Why? Is it because global capitalism does not like football uniforms? The more likely reason is that while one may not know every person in the company, they have a general idea of what the company composition is. One likely knows that this particular company does not have a lot of disabled people, or people who wear football uniforms, or black people. So anyone who does not fit the common profile will get more scrutiny. This of course leaves the question of why isn't a black person common in the software company. I don't know an answer to that. Anecdotally, this starts at high school, if not earlier -- there were no black people in my high school calculus class for example, despite the school having ~25% of black students.
- wpietri 8y ago
  One, I think your using a throwaway account is telling. Two, I think your analogy is ridiculous. He was dressed perfectly well for the environment. Three, he was not "visually distinct"; the skin albedo of African-Americans is of a similar range to South Asians. He was racially distinct. Four, if you don't have any idea why there are fewer black people in high status jobs in America, let me suggest you read some history and sociology. This is a well-studied topic. Just in this thread I've mentioned four different books, any one of which would be a good starting point for you.
  - throw27145 8y ago
    Thanks you for having a conversation with me. I grew up in ex-USSR country which had very little race variance, and the first time I interacted with black/indian/asian person was when I enrolled in the American high school. I got all the standard explanation about the race, and I had some questions and counter-arguments, but it was pretty clear that one is not supposed to talk about it in public. > Three, he was not "visually distinct"; the skin albedo of African-Americans is of a similar range to South Asians. He was racially distinct. Are you saying that people who are racially distinct are not also visually distinct? I do not think this is the case. Skin albedo is not the only important thing, people also look a the face, so face features matter too. Or are you saying that someone who is visually distinct, but not racially unusual, would not get special treatment? For example, imagine that you worked in the company for a long time, and never saw a man in wheelchair. Suddenly, there is a man in wheelchair asking to be let in. Would you let him in? Or would you ask him some questions to make sure he really works there? > Four, if you don't have any idea why there are fewer black people in high status jobs in America, ... I am much more interested why there were no black people in my high school calculus class (and similarly, disproportionately few black people in my college computer science classes) -- because it is pretty clear to me that if you did not take calculus in high school, the chances of you becoming a programmer are very slim. I just googled and found this article: http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html . That article, says the reasons are racist teachers, black parents, other black students, black neighborhoods, racist guidance counselors. As someone who is not teaching children in any capacity, I am not sure how can I help there. Sure, I can read the books so I feel more guilty -- but I am not sure how will it help to get more black students into the calculus classes.

wpietri 8y ago

Yeah, I totally agree that this is a multigenerational problem. And I totally get why you're resigned to it. It isn't your job to clean up a problem created by white people, and you having to do that work is just another burden of racism. But personally, I plan to raise a ruckus like this whenever I get the chance. MLK made a strong argument for creating a "constructive tension" [1]. It was his theory that the necessary changes don't just happen, but require the discomfort of the people with the power to fix things. If my intern had wanted to let things lie, I certainly would have. But since he was ok with me reporting it, I saw it as my duty. To society certainly, but also to the company. They had a serious diversity effort and worked hard to give interns a good experience. I would have been negligent had I let an unconscious mistake from one employee undermine that. Plus, as a white dude, it's easier for me to advocate for these changes. Not only because of my default privilege, but because I'm seen as a disinterested party. I never get accused of "playing the race card" or "misandry" when I come out against some racist or sexist nonsense. So I hope more white people will put their shoulders to the wheel here. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_from_Birmingham_Jail

throw27145 8y ago

Imagine that instead of black person, there would be some other visually distinct person. Say, white person in football uniform. Or asian woman in kimono. Or disabled person in the electric scooter. They would likely get the same "third degree" treatment. Why? Is it because global capitalism does not like football uniforms? The more likely reason is that while one may not know every person in the company, they have a general idea of what the company composition is. One likely knows that this particular company does not have a lot of disabled people, or people who wear football uniforms, or black people. So anyone who does not fit the common profile will get more scrutiny. This of course leaves the question of why isn't a black person common in the software company. I don't know an answer to that. Anecdotally, this starts at high school, if not earlier -- there were no black people in my high school calculus class for example, despite the school having ~25% of black students.

wpietri 8y ago
One, I think your using a throwaway account is telling. Two, I think your analogy is ridiculous. He was dressed perfectly well for the environment. Three, he was not "visually distinct"; the skin albedo of African-Americans is of a similar range to South Asians. He was racially distinct. Four, if you don't have any idea why there are fewer black people in high status jobs in America, let me suggest you read some history and sociology. This is a well-studied topic. Just in this thread I've mentioned four different books, any one of which would be a good starting point for you.
- throw27145 8y ago
  Thanks you for having a conversation with me. I grew up in ex-USSR country which had very little race variance, and the first time I interacted with black/indian/asian person was when I enrolled in the American high school. I got all the standard explanation about the race, and I had some questions and counter-arguments, but it was pretty clear that one is not supposed to talk about it in public. > Three, he was not "visually distinct"; the skin albedo of African-Americans is of a similar range to South Asians. He was racially distinct. Are you saying that people who are racially distinct are not also visually distinct? I do not think this is the case. Skin albedo is not the only important thing, people also look a the face, so face features matter too. Or are you saying that someone who is visually distinct, but not racially unusual, would not get special treatment? For example, imagine that you worked in the company for a long time, and never saw a man in wheelchair. Suddenly, there is a man in wheelchair asking to be let in. Would you let him in? Or would you ask him some questions to make sure he really works there? > Four, if you don't have any idea why there are fewer black people in high status jobs in America, ... I am much more interested why there were no black people in my high school calculus class (and similarly, disproportionately few black people in my college computer science classes) -- because it is pretty clear to me that if you did not take calculus in high school, the chances of you becoming a programmer are very slim. I just googled and found this article: http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html http://www.jbhe.com/features/49_college_admissions-test.html . That article, says the reasons are racist teachers, black parents, other black students, black neighborhoods, racist guidance counselors. As someone who is not teaching children in any capacity, I am not sure how can I help there. Sure, I can read the books so I feel more guilty -- but I am not sure how will it help to get more black students into the calculus classes.