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> IIRC most batteries contain a bunch of rare earth metals and aren’t great for land filling. That's incorrect. Batteries don't have any rare earth metals.

> IIRC most batteries contain a bunch of rare earth metals and aren’t great for land filling. That's incorrect. Batteries don't have any rare earth metals. You're thinking of cadmium telluride thin film solar panels, which have been replaced by silicon solar. They were a contender for cheaper solar panels, but it didn't work out in the end. They were also so terrible for the environment that they tainted the reputation of completely unrelated technologies. > When these are worn out in 10-15 years how much environmental impact is there to replace / refurbish / recycle them? It seems likely that the battery will last a lot longer than 15 years, but Tesla gives 15 years expected and 10 warrantied. Disposing of li-ion batteries involves shredding and burning them, which leaves behind a ceramic clinker (sold for concrete filler) and several metals (nickel, cobalt, copper, aluminum and steel in order of importance). Cobalt and nickel are the only hazardous materials and are fully collected since they're also the most valuable. Lithium is not cost-effective to recover; it's sold with the clinker. The incineration process only gives off CO2 and water. This comes from the electrolytes and plastics being burnt. It's obviously not great and the heat isn't captured for use (AFAIK) but there's no other pollution and the net CO2 savings are still great.

kikki 8y ago
This was incredibly informative, thank you very much.
djhworld 8y ago
Does this also apply to batteries in electric cars? I had an argument with my Dad the other week, he wasn't convinced by electric cars because of the battery disposal situation, complaining he finds it hard enough trying to dispose of a normal battery in a petrol car, so couldn't see the environmental benefit of electric cars I didn't have a good response because I didn't know either.
- hwillis 8y ago
  Normal car batteries are filled with sulfuric acid and lead plates. Obviously, you can't just dump that. The li-ion batteries that power EVs don't have acid. The majority of the chemicals are actually totally innocuous- the carbon, plastics, electrolytes and about half of the metals are downright boring. Steel, aluminum, copper, polypropylene, carbon- lithium was in all the water you ever drank. I wouldn't drink the electrolyte, but it's basically just fancy grease/oil. The only two dangerous ingredients are nickel and cobalt- they aren't as bad as lead, but they aren't good either. They're also the easiest to extract and the most valuable. To recycle a battery, you dump it into a shredder and then into water. An electrochemical process is used to suck the metal off, a lot like how they plate metal onto things (but in reverse). The leftovers are strained out, ground, and eventually burnt.
philipkglass 8y ago
Tellurium, like e.g. gold, is rare on Earth but not a rare earth element. CdTe panels aren't terrible for the environment either. They have a faster energy payback time than crystalline silicon. The cadmium doesn't leak out of the panel any more than arsenic leaks out of cell phone power amplifiers. But CdTe modules have lost ground to crystalline silicon panels because c-Si has reduced costs faster. There's just one significant producer of CdTe modules today, First Solar. NiMH batteries do contain mixed rare earth elements (mostly lanthanum), but the particular elements used are fairly abundant. And of course NiMH batteries look like they can't keep up with lithium ion and will see their niche shrinking further.
- hwillis 8y ago
  Whoops, you're totally right- got my Chinese metals mixed up. 75% of US tellurium comes from China, and I must have gotten cross-contaminated. > The cadmium doesn't leak out of the panel any more than arsenic leaks out of cell phone power amplifiers. The actual cells are perfectly safe but the mining and manufacturing process is not. The extremely lax controls in China 20+ years ago aren't representative of the present, but they did do terrible damage and mining cadmium will always cause contamination. > NiMH batteries do contain mixed rare earth elements (mostly lanthanum), but the particular elements used are fairly abundant. Yes! That's what I had been thinking of, besides magnets obviously. Lanthanum is also notable in that it's used to make gasoline, along with cerium.

kikki 8y ago

This was incredibly informative, thank you very much.

djhworld 8y ago

Does this also apply to batteries in electric cars? I had an argument with my Dad the other week, he wasn't convinced by electric cars because of the battery disposal situation, complaining he finds it hard enough trying to dispose of a normal battery in a petrol car, so couldn't see the environmental benefit of electric cars I didn't have a good response because I didn't know either.

hwillis 8y ago
Normal car batteries are filled with sulfuric acid and lead plates. Obviously, you can't just dump that. The li-ion batteries that power EVs don't have acid. The majority of the chemicals are actually totally innocuous- the carbon, plastics, electrolytes and about half of the metals are downright boring. Steel, aluminum, copper, polypropylene, carbon- lithium was in all the water you ever drank. I wouldn't drink the electrolyte, but it's basically just fancy grease/oil. The only two dangerous ingredients are nickel and cobalt- they aren't as bad as lead, but they aren't good either. They're also the easiest to extract and the most valuable. To recycle a battery, you dump it into a shredder and then into water. An electrochemical process is used to suck the metal off, a lot like how they plate metal onto things (but in reverse). The leftovers are strained out, ground, and eventually burnt.

philipkglass 8y ago

Tellurium, like e.g. gold, is rare on Earth but not a rare earth element. CdTe panels aren't terrible for the environment either. They have a faster energy payback time than crystalline silicon. The cadmium doesn't leak out of the panel any more than arsenic leaks out of cell phone power amplifiers. But CdTe modules have lost ground to crystalline silicon panels because c-Si has reduced costs faster. There's just one significant producer of CdTe modules today, First Solar. NiMH batteries do contain mixed rare earth elements (mostly lanthanum), but the particular elements used are fairly abundant. And of course NiMH batteries look like they can't keep up with lithium ion and will see their niche shrinking further.

hwillis 8y ago
Whoops, you're totally right- got my Chinese metals mixed up. 75% of US tellurium comes from China, and I must have gotten cross-contaminated. > The cadmium doesn't leak out of the panel any more than arsenic leaks out of cell phone power amplifiers. The actual cells are perfectly safe but the mining and manufacturing process is not. The extremely lax controls in China 20+ years ago aren't representative of the present, but they did do terrible damage and mining cadmium will always cause contamination. > NiMH batteries do contain mixed rare earth elements (mostly lanthanum), but the particular elements used are fairly abundant. Yes! That's what I had been thinking of, besides magnets obviously. Lanthanum is also notable in that it's used to make gasoline, along with cerium.