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London once had the world’s largest network of overhead-wire trolly-buses. But they were abandoned in the 1960s in favour of diesel buses, because they offered

London once had the world’s largest network of overhead-wire trolly-buses. But they were abandoned in the 1960s in favour of diesel buses, because they offered more flexibility and lower operating costs. Given what we now know about the health and environmental impacts of diesel, it can be argued that this was a mistake. However, it would be very difficult and costly to reinstate such a network today - we are talking about thousands of miles of wires, and surely huge opposition from businesses and residents who would not want wires cluttering their streets. Battery electrics offer the best of both worlds. The smooth, quiet passenger experience and zero emissions of a trollybus, with the flexibility and low fixed costs of diesel.

agsdfgsd 8y ago
I am replying to both posts here since HN rate limits replies. >Again, you are incorrect here. If you don't believe me, please come to London (or any one of dozens of cities in China and Europe) where battery electric buses routinely operate all day, every day, with overnight recharging only. I do not need to physically go to London to know you are incorrect. I can speak to an operations manager in London and ask him directly. There are absolutely no electric buses in London that operate a full day. Zero. >In London, virtually all diesel buses are retired by the time they are 10 years old. Yes, lots of cities do that. They are not retired because they need to be, they are retired because federal funding is available to retire them. Those exact buses are sold at a huge loss to private companies who operate them for another 30 years. In countries where there are no programs to throw the public's money in the garbage buying new equipment that isn't needed, diesel buses operate for 30-40 years. >Overnight electricity is not only much cheaper, but largely produced by renewables and nuclear, so the carbon intensity is low. It is not much cheaper. If it were actually a net benefit to shift electricity usage to night time using batteries, then that would still be done. You don't need the batteries in the buses to do that. It is actually much better for them not to be in the buses. There's lots of trollybus systems all over the world in active use. None of them install batteries to shift electricity usage to the night time. The reason is obvious, it isn't cost effective. You can't pretend a negative that you are stuck with is a positive when if it were actually a positive it would apply to the system you are fighting against too. >However, it would be very difficult and costly to reinstate such a network today There is nothing difficult about running wires. We already have people who do this job. It would be expensive. But it is less expensive than batteries, which is why cities where there are no corporate interests bribing politicians to buy expensive battery systems are buying trollybuses. You can't compare wires to nothing and proclaim them expensive, you have to compare it to the alternative, which is much more expensive. >Battery electrics offer the best of both worlds No, they do not. >The smooth, quiet passenger experience and zero emissions of a trollybus They are not zero emissions, they burn diesel all winter to heat the bus. >with the flexibility and low fixed costs of diesel. What low fixed costs of diesel? The only definition in which diesel is low cost is upfront purchase price, and by that measure battery powered buses are high cost, 160% of the cost even. In any long term cost comparison, trollybuses are cheaper than battery which are cheaper than diesel.
- detaro 8y ago
  Various media reports claim London routes 507 and 521 run fully electric, with the city saying in the announcement that trials showed the busses running 16 hour shifts without recharges (https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-unveils-first-fully-electric-bus-routes https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-unvei..., some newer media reports repeat that that's how they operate). So apparently there are some buses running like that, even if only on relatively short routes.
shaki-dora 8y ago
Don’t waste your time on this guy. He’s just a troll, and therefore feels special attachment to the trolley. You can easily back him into a corner where he’s require to call the current US President “a left-wing New York liberal”, then continue infuriating you with arbitrarily requests to prove everything from first principle. (C. F. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18618393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18618393)
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Calling people you disagree with trolls and then going back through their comments to post irrelevant ad-homs in other threads doesn't seem like it is within the spirit of the commenting guidelines as I read them. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.

agsdfgsd 8y ago

I am replying to both posts here since HN rate limits replies. >Again, you are incorrect here. If you don't believe me, please come to London (or any one of dozens of cities in China and Europe) where battery electric buses routinely operate all day, every day, with overnight recharging only. I do not need to physically go to London to know you are incorrect. I can speak to an operations manager in London and ask him directly. There are absolutely no electric buses in London that operate a full day. Zero. >In London, virtually all diesel buses are retired by the time they are 10 years old. Yes, lots of cities do that. They are not retired because they need to be, they are retired because federal funding is available to retire them. Those exact buses are sold at a huge loss to private companies who operate them for another 30 years. In countries where there are no programs to throw the public's money in the garbage buying new equipment that isn't needed, diesel buses operate for 30-40 years. >Overnight electricity is not only much cheaper, but largely produced by renewables and nuclear, so the carbon intensity is low. It is not much cheaper. If it were actually a net benefit to shift electricity usage to night time using batteries, then that would still be done. You don't need the batteries in the buses to do that. It is actually much better for them not to be in the buses. There's lots of trollybus systems all over the world in active use. None of them install batteries to shift electricity usage to the night time. The reason is obvious, it isn't cost effective. You can't pretend a negative that you are stuck with is a positive when if it were actually a positive it would apply to the system you are fighting against too. >However, it would be very difficult and costly to reinstate such a network today There is nothing difficult about running wires. We already have people who do this job. It would be expensive. But it is less expensive than batteries, which is why cities where there are no corporate interests bribing politicians to buy expensive battery systems are buying trollybuses. You can't compare wires to nothing and proclaim them expensive, you have to compare it to the alternative, which is much more expensive. >Battery electrics offer the best of both worlds No, they do not. >The smooth, quiet passenger experience and zero emissions of a trollybus They are not zero emissions, they burn diesel all winter to heat the bus. >with the flexibility and low fixed costs of diesel. What low fixed costs of diesel? The only definition in which diesel is low cost is upfront purchase price, and by that measure battery powered buses are high cost, 160% of the cost even. In any long term cost comparison, trollybuses are cheaper than battery which are cheaper than diesel.

detaro 8y ago
Various media reports claim London routes 507 and 521 run fully electric, with the city saying in the announcement that trials showed the busses running 16 hour shifts without recharges (https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-unveils-first-fully-electric-bus-routes https://www.london.gov.uk/press-releases/mayoral/mayor-unvei..., some newer media reports repeat that that's how they operate). So apparently there are some buses running like that, even if only on relatively short routes.

shaki-dora 8y ago

Don’t waste your time on this guy. He’s just a troll, and therefore feels special attachment to the trolley. You can easily back him into a corner where he’s require to call the current US President “a left-wing New York liberal”, then continue infuriating you with arbitrarily requests to prove everything from first principle. (C. F. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18618393 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18618393)

agsdfgsd 8y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html Calling people you disagree with trolls and then going back through their comments to post irrelevant ad-homs in other threads doesn't seem like it is within the spirit of the commenting guidelines as I read them. Maybe I'm just reading it wrong.