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Can someone explain the nuances of these protests? Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Aren't

Can someone explain the nuances of these protests? Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Aren't carbon taxes progressive and environmentally responsible?

detaro 8y ago
They're also a burden on poorer people, especially from rural regions (where cars are necessary), proposed by a government that's generally been seen as helping the rich and burdening the poor. It's less a protest against that specific tax in isolation, and more against the general trend, that was triggered by the proposed tax as the last straw.
saagarjha 8y ago
Not an expert by any means, but to my understanding the carbon tax is only part of a series of taxes that the French people are protesting about, which they feel help the rich and hurt the poor disproportionately.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Yes, the French routing over taxes is not historically uncommon, and the French aren't unified ideologically, and particularly aren't uniformly left-wing. And, as I understand, it's not as simple as just carbon taxes, either.
- jklinger410 8y ago
  I understand the french-are-liberal trope, but, as an American, I view countries like Canada, France, and Germany as way farther left than the US. Economically, and culturally. We see much less representation of their conservatives here. Pardon me for being slightly ignorant on this, and thank you for the reminder.
  - seren 8y ago
    Something interesting I caught on the radio this morning and that I find really relevant, is that while Yellow Vests have people from both ends of the political spectrum, the far-right is not anti welfare state at all. LePen's Rassemblement National is anti-immigration, and anti Europe or anti globalization, so in this regard could be close to some of Trump's positions but is not at all against welfare state. Most people protesting want less gas taxes, but not at the cost of lesser healthcare or education. I believe this is a position that does not really exist in the American political spectrum. So it was explained by the speaker that culturally French people are more on the side of "Social Justice" rather than "Freedom", but that does necessarily means there are more "liberal" than "conservative". It can look similar but if you are looking really close, you cannot really apply American labels. I believe this is one of the reason it looks confusing and it is hard to explain from an outsider perspective.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > I understand the french-are-liberal trope, but, as an American, I view countries like Canada, France, and Germany as way farther left than the US. Sure, most Western countries are; by the standard of most other developed Western, the dominant faction of the Democratic Party is somewhere between center-right and right-wing, while the Republican Party as a whole (not just it's extremist fringe) is far-right. But that doesn't mean that other countries don't have as much (or, often, more) left-right range as the US, just different centers.
Totoradio 8y ago
It's very complicated to explain because it's not a "traditional" movement run by a leader/political party/union. Protesters are all over the political spectrum. It's the combination of (real and/or perceived): - rise of inequalities - new taxes (including the carbon tax) - removal of taxes impacting only the rich - sentiment of neglect of the rural areas by the government - disdain for lower classes by Macron - lower purchasing power for low/middle class and probably some other stuff. It's really an aggregation of all that. Add the fact that there is no leader, no precise demands, this makes a nightmare for the government to fix or contain.
- seren 8y ago
  And maybe interesting, or dangerous depending on the point of view, amongst the rioters you got both far-left and far-right movements on the same side, which is something that does not happen that often.
  - baq 8y ago
    it'd be helpful to explain what far right and far left mean in the context of France, as I doubt it's the same thing as in e.g. USA.
    - Totoradio 8y ago
      Far left would be anarchists, black-blocs, and a few communists in there too. Far right would be openly pro-nazi, or Vichy nostalgic small organizations like Oeuvre Française and other dissolved and then formed again groups. Add unaffiliated fascist skinheads in the mix. Then again, almost every nuance of the spectrum between those two is represented in the protesters.
- ocschwar 8y ago
  Right now the right wing media in the US is gleefully attributing the protests primarily to the carbon tax.
upofadown 8y ago
These particular carbon taxes are not revenue neutral and as a result are perceived as greenwashed regular taxes. If you are trying to change public behaviour it is best to just change the balance of taxes otherwise the general tax increase becomes a distraction from the ultimate goal.
wcoenen 8y ago
The french are not one uniform group. Same in Belgium: in Brussels last week, there were violent protests by a few thousand "yellow vests". The next day, there was a much larger (65K people) climate change manifestation without incident. I personally saw multiple moms feeding babies during that march. We're at a point now where we have to give up priviliges to slow down climate change. Even if the majority agrees to do it, some will refuse and turn violent. And unfortunately, the violence will cause more headlines.

detaro 8y ago

They're also a burden on poorer people, especially from rural regions (where cars are necessary), proposed by a government that's generally been seen as helping the rich and burdening the poor. It's less a protest against that specific tax in isolation, and more against the general trend, that was triggered by the proposed tax as the last straw.

saagarjha 8y ago

Not an expert by any means, but to my understanding the carbon tax is only part of a series of taxes that the French people are protesting about, which they feel help the rich and hurt the poor disproportionately.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> Am I wrong to find it weird that the seemingly liberal, "woke" French are rioting over a carbon tax? Yes, the French routing over taxes is not historically uncommon, and the French aren't unified ideologically, and particularly aren't uniformly left-wing. And, as I understand, it's not as simple as just carbon taxes, either.

jklinger410 8y ago
I understand the french-are-liberal trope, but, as an American, I view countries like Canada, France, and Germany as way farther left than the US. Economically, and culturally. We see much less representation of their conservatives here. Pardon me for being slightly ignorant on this, and thank you for the reminder.
- seren 8y ago
  Something interesting I caught on the radio this morning and that I find really relevant, is that while Yellow Vests have people from both ends of the political spectrum, the far-right is not anti welfare state at all. LePen's Rassemblement National is anti-immigration, and anti Europe or anti globalization, so in this regard could be close to some of Trump's positions but is not at all against welfare state. Most people protesting want less gas taxes, but not at the cost of lesser healthcare or education. I believe this is a position that does not really exist in the American political spectrum. So it was explained by the speaker that culturally French people are more on the side of "Social Justice" rather than "Freedom", but that does necessarily means there are more "liberal" than "conservative". It can look similar but if you are looking really close, you cannot really apply American labels. I believe this is one of the reason it looks confusing and it is hard to explain from an outsider perspective.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > I understand the french-are-liberal trope, but, as an American, I view countries like Canada, France, and Germany as way farther left than the US. Sure, most Western countries are; by the standard of most other developed Western, the dominant faction of the Democratic Party is somewhere between center-right and right-wing, while the Republican Party as a whole (not just it's extremist fringe) is far-right. But that doesn't mean that other countries don't have as much (or, often, more) left-right range as the US, just different centers.

Totoradio 8y ago

It's very complicated to explain because it's not a "traditional" movement run by a leader/political party/union. Protesters are all over the political spectrum. It's the combination of (real and/or perceived): - rise of inequalities - new taxes (including the carbon tax) - removal of taxes impacting only the rich - sentiment of neglect of the rural areas by the government - disdain for lower classes by Macron - lower purchasing power for low/middle class and probably some other stuff. It's really an aggregation of all that. Add the fact that there is no leader, no precise demands, this makes a nightmare for the government to fix or contain.

seren 8y ago
And maybe interesting, or dangerous depending on the point of view, amongst the rioters you got both far-left and far-right movements on the same side, which is something that does not happen that often.
- baq 8y ago
  it'd be helpful to explain what far right and far left mean in the context of France, as I doubt it's the same thing as in e.g. USA.
  - Totoradio 8y ago
    Far left would be anarchists, black-blocs, and a few communists in there too. Far right would be openly pro-nazi, or Vichy nostalgic small organizations like Oeuvre Française and other dissolved and then formed again groups. Add unaffiliated fascist skinheads in the mix. Then again, almost every nuance of the spectrum between those two is represented in the protesters.
ocschwar 8y ago
Right now the right wing media in the US is gleefully attributing the protests primarily to the carbon tax.

upofadown 8y ago

These particular carbon taxes are not revenue neutral and as a result are perceived as greenwashed regular taxes. If you are trying to change public behaviour it is best to just change the balance of taxes otherwise the general tax increase becomes a distraction from the ultimate goal.

wcoenen 8y ago

The french are not one uniform group. Same in Belgium: in Brussels last week, there were violent protests by a few thousand "yellow vests". The next day, there was a much larger (65K people) climate change manifestation without incident. I personally saw multiple moms feeding babies during that march. We're at a point now where we have to give up priviliges to slow down climate change. Even if the majority agrees to do it, some will refuse and turn violent. And unfortunately, the violence will cause more headlines.