6 ms·

> This is another thing that adds to my deep sense of shame to live in this country (sadly, that list is long and growing). I don't support this legislation, b

> This is another thing that adds to my deep sense of shame to live in this country (sadly, that list is long and growing). I don't support this legislation, but I have to ask, which country is doing a better job on human rights issues than Australia in your opinion? Surely not China or nearly any country in Asia, Africa, or South America? Surely not the US? Probably not much of Europe?

toyg 8y ago
Iceland. But yeah, “cryptonomicon” utopias are hard to get by, these days.
neotek 8y ago
Why does it matter? It's not a zero sum game, what others are doing is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not what we're doing is disgustingly immoral (and it is, as far as I'm concerned.)
shakna 8y ago
To paraphrase our PM, speaking on medical evacuation of children, "I will do whatever is possible to prevent it." Australia's government blocked legislation that would help kids not die. Because they came on a boat. Which has never been the primary way illegal immigrants get into this country. Nauru was declared a human rights travesty by the UN. The medical board that decides whether or not it is a medical emergency that needs to be treated in Australia is staffed by lawyers and only occasionally features a doctor. We're killing people from neglect, because they dared to take any avenue available to them to escape their homes. If we put half the effort into assessing their case as we do into making sure they stay in a place reminiscent of WWII slave encampments, there would be no issues.
- nickcox 8y ago
  It is an absolute national shame. MSF recently likened the mental health of the people on Nauru to victims of torture.[1] The most disturbing aspect is the strong bipartisan and public support for the ongoing abuse. Every Australian should wake up in the morning, take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves if they're proud of what they've become. [1] https://www.msf.org.au/article/statements-opinion/indefinite-despair-mental-health-consequences-nauru https://www.msf.org.au/article/statements-opinion/indefinite...
  - brokenmachine 8y ago
    >The most disturbing aspect is the strong bipartisan and public support for the ongoing abuse. Is there really public support? Everyone I've talked to thinks it's a disgrace.
    - nickcox 8y ago
      The pollies seem to think so. I don't know anyone who admitted voting for Abbott in 2013 either but a lot of people obviously did.
    - bigiain 8y ago
      My personal social circle and Sydney Inner West socailly aware bubble all thinks it's a disgrace, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking I'd need to go very far before I bumped into people who'd justify it to themselves as "necessary for the country", and not a lot further to find people actively and vocally celebrating the cruelness...
      - bigger_cheese 8y ago
        Yes this is the sad truth unfortunately a huge swathe of the general population support the 'tough on refugees' stance. It can get pretty ugly. About 5 years ago I was pretty heavily involved in refugee activism a friend and I were spat on in a shopping center for circulating a petition and was not uncommon to get verbally abused by people in the street. This was in a safe labor area too so it's not exactly like I was in some conservative heartland.
    - Joakal 8y ago
      Some people say the efforts by Liberal/Labor are to discourage a lot more refugees from overwhelming Australia. Resulting in increased crime, less jobs, etc. They acknowledge that some will suffer in the process. Other points I noticed: - Coming across as emotional about the harm and suffering on Nauru or escaping war, they will dismiss all arguments as immature and feel like they're being an adult to you. - Some are persuaded by increased economic activity and net welfare investment benefits but want more screening but wouldn't know how to do this effectively. Source: Asking random people about policies. Some people you can try asking: mechanics, tradies, checkout people, business people, asking people who handout stuff for Liberal/Labor. To get a deep understanding, read their sources, any of the Murdoch rags or right wing morning shows (ie Alan Jones).
mijamo 8y ago
Actually I think several latin american and european country do a better job on human rights issues. Some african countries as well. See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Index_of_Moral_Freedom#WIMF_2016_ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Index_of_Moral_Freedom#W...
oger 8y ago
This is a classical‘whataboutism‘ trying to deflect from the real subject by bringing up another. But keeping in line with that theme: what about detaining immigrants in Nauru, Christmans Island, Manus Island etc. under doubtful circumstances with no open access for press and NGOs?
- StavrosK 8y ago
  I didn't read the comment as tu quoque, I read it as "it's a bit shit everywhere". Even Canada treats native populations badly, I don't know what things are like in the Scandinavian countries. Too bad, it's almost 2020 and we still can't get "treat people well" right. What hope do animals or the environment have?
- PeterisP 8y ago
  Wasn't the situation in Nauru that the immigrants aren't considered detained as they are free to return home as soon as they agree to do so?

toyg 8y ago

Iceland. But yeah, “cryptonomicon” utopias are hard to get by, these days.

neotek 8y ago

Why does it matter? It's not a zero sum game, what others are doing is completely irrelevant to the question of whether or not what we're doing is disgustingly immoral (and it is, as far as I'm concerned.)

shakna 8y ago

To paraphrase our PM, speaking on medical evacuation of children, "I will do whatever is possible to prevent it." Australia's government blocked legislation that would help kids not die. Because they came on a boat. Which has never been the primary way illegal immigrants get into this country. Nauru was declared a human rights travesty by the UN. The medical board that decides whether or not it is a medical emergency that needs to be treated in Australia is staffed by lawyers and only occasionally features a doctor. We're killing people from neglect, because they dared to take any avenue available to them to escape their homes. If we put half the effort into assessing their case as we do into making sure they stay in a place reminiscent of WWII slave encampments, there would be no issues.

nickcox 8y ago
It is an absolute national shame. MSF recently likened the mental health of the people on Nauru to victims of torture.[1] The most disturbing aspect is the strong bipartisan and public support for the ongoing abuse. Every Australian should wake up in the morning, take a long hard look in the mirror and ask themselves if they're proud of what they've become. [1] https://www.msf.org.au/article/statements-opinion/indefinite-despair-mental-health-consequences-nauru https://www.msf.org.au/article/statements-opinion/indefinite...
- brokenmachine 8y ago
  >The most disturbing aspect is the strong bipartisan and public support for the ongoing abuse. Is there really public support? Everyone I've talked to thinks it's a disgrace.
  - nickcox 8y ago
    The pollies seem to think so. I don't know anyone who admitted voting for Abbott in 2013 either but a lot of people obviously did.
  - bigiain 8y ago
    My personal social circle and Sydney Inner West socailly aware bubble all thinks it's a disgrace, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking I'd need to go very far before I bumped into people who'd justify it to themselves as "necessary for the country", and not a lot further to find people actively and vocally celebrating the cruelness...
    - bigger_cheese 8y ago
      Yes this is the sad truth unfortunately a huge swathe of the general population support the 'tough on refugees' stance. It can get pretty ugly. About 5 years ago I was pretty heavily involved in refugee activism a friend and I were spat on in a shopping center for circulating a petition and was not uncommon to get verbally abused by people in the street. This was in a safe labor area too so it's not exactly like I was in some conservative heartland.
  - Joakal 8y ago
    Some people say the efforts by Liberal/Labor are to discourage a lot more refugees from overwhelming Australia. Resulting in increased crime, less jobs, etc. They acknowledge that some will suffer in the process. Other points I noticed: - Coming across as emotional about the harm and suffering on Nauru or escaping war, they will dismiss all arguments as immature and feel like they're being an adult to you. - Some are persuaded by increased economic activity and net welfare investment benefits but want more screening but wouldn't know how to do this effectively. Source: Asking random people about policies. Some people you can try asking: mechanics, tradies, checkout people, business people, asking people who handout stuff for Liberal/Labor. To get a deep understanding, read their sources, any of the Murdoch rags or right wing morning shows (ie Alan Jones).

mijamo 8y ago

Actually I think several latin american and european country do a better job on human rights issues. Some african countries as well. See for instance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Index_of_Moral_Freedom#WIMF_2016_ranking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Index_of_Moral_Freedom#W...

oger 8y ago

This is a classical‘whataboutism‘ trying to deflect from the real subject by bringing up another. But keeping in line with that theme: what about detaining immigrants in Nauru, Christmans Island, Manus Island etc. under doubtful circumstances with no open access for press and NGOs?

StavrosK 8y ago
I didn't read the comment as tu quoque, I read it as "it's a bit shit everywhere". Even Canada treats native populations badly, I don't know what things are like in the Scandinavian countries. Too bad, it's almost 2020 and we still can't get "treat people well" right. What hope do animals or the environment have?
PeterisP 8y ago
Wasn't the situation in Nauru that the immigrants aren't considered detained as they are free to return home as soon as they agree to do so?