4 ms·

A candidate demanding another $100k on top of a fair offer, whether to sign a non-compete or for any other reason, is not going to get the offer. There's a myt

A candidate demanding another $100k on top of a fair offer, whether to sign a non-compete or for any other reason, is not going to get the offer. There's a myth that SV engineers can demand whatever they want and get it. No, they can't. If I get an offer for $200k, and that's actually my market value, and I demand another $100k for any reason whatsoever - I won't get them, period. NCAs aren't legal in California, but if they were, and some smartass decided to demand another $100k cash to sign them, I guarantee he'd just get a pass, and someone less smartass would get the job instead.

sidlls 8y ago
It's interesting that you use the pejorative "smartass" and imply the demand is unreasonable. This couldn't be a clearer example of the low social status engineers have.
- dunpeal 8y ago
  I'm actually an engineer :-) I used "smartass" because it's a move that superficially seems clever, but is actually completely futile when you look at the broad picture - as my comment shows. I don't know if us engineers have "low social status", but we certainly don't have as much negotiating power as some of us may fancy, certainly not against a huge mega-corporation.
  - logfromblammo 8y ago
    All other things being equal, businesses will hire the candidate that they can potentially abuse before the one that may righteously push back. So if you are one who would negotiate the terms of a non-compete, you will not even get the opportunity until all those who will just blindly sign it have been given the chance to do so. The smart-ass part is signaling that you're less-abusable before the decision is made on hiring you. The devious move would be to play dumb in the domain of HR paperwork, and delay signing anything. Just say you need to review it in private and make a copy, pocket the paper, and never give it back, or even bring it up again. Or mark up the document to completely pull its teeth, sign that, and turn it in with a stack of other paperwork. HR will probably just file it and tick their checkbox for it, without even flagging it for review by legal.
    - mehrdadn 8y ago
      How do you do this when the signature happens online rather than on paper?
      - whatshisface 8y ago
        Try sending them physical documents? Maybe they have a fax machine.
        logfromblammo 8y ago
        If they don't have a fax, they still have a mailing address. If you can print out the document, you can alter it before sending it back. But going outside the normal workflow invites human scrutiny, so anything you do there has to be above-board. You could always add some words to your digital signature, like "this is not a contract", or "I refuse these terms", if that's the only way you could otherwise edit the document. If it's an automated system, it's likely that there is no human review until the documents are actually needed for some legal reason. By that time, you'll already have your money. You could also try hacking the document system. The worst that could happen is that you don't get to work there. Second worst is that months or years into your new job, some HR person notices a discrepancy, and wants you to sign a fresh copy, or you're fired immediately. Try sending back a document that has lorem ipsum generated text or Markov chain text with the appropriate paragraph lengths? They're probably counting on you just clicking the buttons, maybe typing out your full legal name, and automatically filling the checkboxes with green checkmarks. Putting all of it into an automated system is already a means of cutting corners on legal paperwork. You can easily outsmart the computer, if there's no human helping it.
      - rectang 8y ago
        I hated how Zenefits made my employment contract like a click through software license agreement. It's not like I'm accepting the iTunes terms of service here -- this is a crucial document and much more likely to have life-altering consequences.
    - ascar 8y ago

sidlls 8y ago

It's interesting that you use the pejorative "smartass" and imply the demand is unreasonable. This couldn't be a clearer example of the low social status engineers have.

dunpeal 8y ago
I'm actually an engineer :-) I used "smartass" because it's a move that superficially seems clever, but is actually completely futile when you look at the broad picture - as my comment shows. I don't know if us engineers have "low social status", but we certainly don't have as much negotiating power as some of us may fancy, certainly not against a huge mega-corporation.
- logfromblammo 8y ago
  All other things being equal, businesses will hire the candidate that they can potentially abuse before the one that may righteously push back. So if you are one who would negotiate the terms of a non-compete, you will not even get the opportunity until all those who will just blindly sign it have been given the chance to do so. The smart-ass part is signaling that you're less-abusable before the decision is made on hiring you. The devious move would be to play dumb in the domain of HR paperwork, and delay signing anything. Just say you need to review it in private and make a copy, pocket the paper, and never give it back, or even bring it up again. Or mark up the document to completely pull its teeth, sign that, and turn it in with a stack of other paperwork. HR will probably just file it and tick their checkbox for it, without even flagging it for review by legal.
  - mehrdadn 8y ago
    How do you do this when the signature happens online rather than on paper?
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      Try sending them physical documents? Maybe they have a fax machine.
      - logfromblammo 8y ago
        If they don't have a fax, they still have a mailing address. If you can print out the document, you can alter it before sending it back. But going outside the normal workflow invites human scrutiny, so anything you do there has to be above-board. You could always add some words to your digital signature, like "this is not a contract", or "I refuse these terms", if that's the only way you could otherwise edit the document. If it's an automated system, it's likely that there is no human review until the documents are actually needed for some legal reason. By that time, you'll already have your money. You could also try hacking the document system. The worst that could happen is that you don't get to work there. Second worst is that months or years into your new job, some HR person notices a discrepancy, and wants you to sign a fresh copy, or you're fired immediately. Try sending back a document that has lorem ipsum generated text or Markov chain text with the appropriate paragraph lengths? They're probably counting on you just clicking the buttons, maybe typing out your full legal name, and automatically filling the checkboxes with green checkmarks. Putting all of it into an automated system is already a means of cutting corners on legal paperwork. You can easily outsmart the computer, if there's no human helping it.
    - rectang 8y ago
      I hated how Zenefits made my employment contract like a click through software license agreement. It's not like I'm accepting the iTunes terms of service here -- this is a crucial document and much more likely to have life-altering consequences.
  - ascar 8y ago