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How sure can I be if my company is not breaking any Chinese laws? Would it by fine if I get arrested for breaking those when I'm on a trip to Asia? I'm not say

by comboy 8y ago

How sure can I be if my company is not breaking any Chinese laws? Would it by fine if I get arrested for breaking those when I'm on a trip to Asia? I'm not saying that Huawei is innocent, I just agree with the downvoted comment that the situation seems ridiculous.

tonyarkles 8y ago
That is the risk you take! It's not without precedent. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd. Russian citizen working for a Russian company, comes to the US to give a talk and is arrested for violating the DMCA.
anonymous5133 8y ago
It does sound ridiculous but if you do break Chinese laws and travel to a country that has an extraditions treaty with china, then yes, you can get arrested and sent to China for prosecution. That's why it is important to only do business in countries you understand the law in or have business policies which are favorable to your business.
Brushfire 8y ago
When you do business in another country, you are subject to its laws. You can choose to not worry about other countries laws very easily: do not do any business there.
- comboy 8y ago
  I have no idea about details of Huawei situation, but if your product ends up in given country do you do business there? How about providing a website and not filtering users by country? In most countries laws are created faster than citizens can learn them even if they would put a lot of effort into that. In many cases those who vote them haven't even read them in detail. There is no single person on the planet who knows all laws in all countries. Should we abandon the idea of the Internet? It would be purely hypothetical pondering if not for GDPR which bring a lot of mess to countries outside EU and cut off some EU users from the content which they could otherwise consume. Unless regulators get their stuff together reasonably quick, we may likely end up in some more encrypted and decentralized version of the Internet which makes governments less relevant. I don't mind.
  - azernik 8y ago
    In this particular case, it was that Huawei was purchasing US-made products to which sanctions applied and exporting them to Iran. I highly doubt that Huawei executives were unaware that this was against US policy and law; they just thought that the US would only punish the corporation and not the people involved, without realizing that the arm of US law extends to a whole web of countries that have extradition treaties with it. See also the German VW executives who are very restricted in where they can travel to based on their crimes in the diesel emissions scandal.
dahdum 8y ago
You can't be sure, and that's a risk you'll always take when going to a country China can extradite you from. Singling China out is silly though, any country can do this, some just have more political clout to pull it off. For instance, Thailand sought extradition of those insulting their king abroad. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/29/thailand-bhumibol-monarchy-insults-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/29/thailand-bhumi...
- MetalGuru 8y ago
  This is mind-blowing and appalling. A 30-year prison sentence for posting on Facebook?
  - londons_explore 8y ago
    Every country has things the culture is sensitive of. That might be child pornography for the USA, or drugs for Malaysia, or comments about the king for Thailand. They all have long prison sentences/death in their country, and light/no sentences in most of the rest of the world. All countries have tried to go after people breaking their culturally sensitive thing abroad, with varying levels of success.
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      >Every country has things the culture is sensitive of. That might be child pornography for the USA, or drugs for Malaysia, or comments about the king for Thailand. That doesn't make them morally equivalent. You can't defend 30 years in prison for being mean.
      - bicubic 8y ago
        Morally equivalent? Who is the arbiter of moral valence? This sense of moral superiority or having a better judgement than others, is exactly the property that blinds individuals and entire cultures to the absurdity of their own morals.
bdcravens 8y ago
A core philosophy of law is that ignorance of the law isn't a valid excuse for breaking it.
btian 8y ago
You should ask your corporate counsel. Yes, it would be fine if you get arrested. This is why a number of VW corporate officers cannot travel to countries with extradition treaties with the US, due to diesel cheating scandal.
tathougies 8y ago
You do not have a right to not be arrested in China. Why would you think that? They can arrest you for any reason at any time if you are on their land.
- 08-15 8y ago
  You also don't have a right to not be arrested in America. Why would you think that? They can arrest you for any reason at any time if you are on their land. If you're outside America, you don't have a right not to be blown to pieces by a killer robot (aka "drone"). Why would you think that? They can blow you to pieces for any reason at any time no matter where you are.
  - tathougies 8y ago
    > You also don't have a right to not be arrested in America. That's a given, mate. The commentor made the ridiculous claim that he had a right not to be arrested in China for breaking Chinese laws. No individual has that right. The passage I responded to was > How sure can I be if my company is not breaking any Chinese laws? Would it by fine if I get arrested for breaking those when I'm on a trip to Asia? The answer is that you cannot be sure. The chinese government has every ability to arrest you for crimes committed elsewhere. They have every ability to change their laws at any time to enable their arrest. No one will even blink if they abandoned their legal system entirely to arrest just you for nothing at all in particular. There is no 'rule' saying they can only arrest you for things done on their soil; or that arrests of a non-citizen must be just; or really anything. This is true of America as well. Why wouldn't it be? We're speaking on the level of sovereign nations. > If you're outside America, you don't have a right not to be blown to pieces by a killer robot (aka "drone"). Why would you think that? They can blow you to pieces for any reason at any time no matter where you are. This is another topic entirely and completely non-germaine to the thread.
pkaye 8y ago
One way to to be certain is to not travel or do business with any Chinese company. In this case, Huawei was selling us technology to Iran so it became a target. Whenever you get in the cross-hairs of any country and you travel abroad, there is a non-zero risk of you being extradited.
chapium 8y ago
If you were CFO you likely would be involved with a deal to a foreign government.
azernik 8y ago
Which is why a) China hasn't managed to get a whole lot of extradition treaties signed, and b) those treaties generally have exemptions for crimes that are considered "political". The unusual thing is that the Canada-US extradition treaty allows extradition on such a "political" offense, but that's probably mostly down to the US and Canada having the same position on Iran.

by comboy 8y ago

tonyarkles 8y ago

That is the risk you take! It's not without precedent. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd. Russian citizen working for a Russian company, comes to the US to give a talk and is arrested for violating the DMCA.

anonymous5133 8y ago

It does sound ridiculous but if you do break Chinese laws and travel to a country that has an extraditions treaty with china, then yes, you can get arrested and sent to China for prosecution. That's why it is important to only do business in countries you understand the law in or have business policies which are favorable to your business.

Brushfire 8y ago

When you do business in another country, you are subject to its laws. You can choose to not worry about other countries laws very easily: do not do any business there.

comboy 8y ago
I have no idea about details of Huawei situation, but if your product ends up in given country do you do business there? How about providing a website and not filtering users by country? In most countries laws are created faster than citizens can learn them even if they would put a lot of effort into that. In many cases those who vote them haven't even read them in detail. There is no single person on the planet who knows all laws in all countries. Should we abandon the idea of the Internet? It would be purely hypothetical pondering if not for GDPR which bring a lot of mess to countries outside EU and cut off some EU users from the content which they could otherwise consume. Unless regulators get their stuff together reasonably quick, we may likely end up in some more encrypted and decentralized version of the Internet which makes governments less relevant. I don't mind.
- azernik 8y ago
  In this particular case, it was that Huawei was purchasing US-made products to which sanctions applied and exporting them to Iran. I highly doubt that Huawei executives were unaware that this was against US policy and law; they just thought that the US would only punish the corporation and not the people involved, without realizing that the arm of US law extends to a whole web of countries that have extradition treaties with it. See also the German VW executives who are very restricted in where they can travel to based on their crimes in the diesel emissions scandal.

dahdum 8y ago

You can't be sure, and that's a risk you'll always take when going to a country China can extradite you from. Singling China out is silly though, any country can do this, some just have more political clout to pull it off. For instance, Thailand sought extradition of those insulting their king abroad. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/29/thailand-bhumibol-monarchy-insults-law https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/29/thailand-bhumi...

MetalGuru 8y ago
This is mind-blowing and appalling. A 30-year prison sentence for posting on Facebook?
- londons_explore 8y ago
  Every country has things the culture is sensitive of. That might be child pornography for the USA, or drugs for Malaysia, or comments about the king for Thailand. They all have long prison sentences/death in their country, and light/no sentences in most of the rest of the world. All countries have tried to go after people breaking their culturally sensitive thing abroad, with varying levels of success.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    >Every country has things the culture is sensitive of. That might be child pornography for the USA, or drugs for Malaysia, or comments about the king for Thailand. That doesn't make them morally equivalent. You can't defend 30 years in prison for being mean.
    - bicubic 8y ago
      Morally equivalent? Who is the arbiter of moral valence? This sense of moral superiority or having a better judgement than others, is exactly the property that blinds individuals and entire cultures to the absurdity of their own morals.

bdcravens 8y ago

A core philosophy of law is that ignorance of the law isn't a valid excuse for breaking it.

btian 8y ago

You should ask your corporate counsel. Yes, it would be fine if you get arrested. This is why a number of VW corporate officers cannot travel to countries with extradition treaties with the US, due to diesel cheating scandal.

tathougies 8y ago

You do not have a right to not be arrested in China. Why would you think that? They can arrest you for any reason at any time if you are on their land.

08-15 8y ago
You also don't have a right to not be arrested in America. Why would you think that? They can arrest you for any reason at any time if you are on their land. If you're outside America, you don't have a right not to be blown to pieces by a killer robot (aka "drone"). Why would you think that? They can blow you to pieces for any reason at any time no matter where you are.
- tathougies 8y ago
  > You also don't have a right to not be arrested in America. That's a given, mate. The commentor made the ridiculous claim that he had a right not to be arrested in China for breaking Chinese laws. No individual has that right. The passage I responded to was > How sure can I be if my company is not breaking any Chinese laws? Would it by fine if I get arrested for breaking those when I'm on a trip to Asia? The answer is that you cannot be sure. The chinese government has every ability to arrest you for crimes committed elsewhere. They have every ability to change their laws at any time to enable their arrest. No one will even blink if they abandoned their legal system entirely to arrest just you for nothing at all in particular. There is no 'rule' saying they can only arrest you for things done on their soil; or that arrests of a non-citizen must be just; or really anything. This is true of America as well. Why wouldn't it be? We're speaking on the level of sovereign nations. > If you're outside America, you don't have a right not to be blown to pieces by a killer robot (aka "drone"). Why would you think that? They can blow you to pieces for any reason at any time no matter where you are. This is another topic entirely and completely non-germaine to the thread.

pkaye 8y ago

One way to to be certain is to not travel or do business with any Chinese company. In this case, Huawei was selling us technology to Iran so it became a target. Whenever you get in the cross-hairs of any country and you travel abroad, there is a non-zero risk of you being extradited.

chapium 8y ago

If you were CFO you likely would be involved with a deal to a foreign government.

azernik 8y ago

Which is why a) China hasn't managed to get a whole lot of extradition treaties signed, and b) those treaties generally have exemptions for crimes that are considered "political". The unusual thing is that the Canada-US extradition treaty allows extradition on such a "political" offense, but that's probably mostly down to the US and Canada having the same position on Iran.