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Can somebody explain to me on what authority the US can request the arrest of a Chinese national on Canadian soil for any action they took while conducting oper
by fosk 8y ago
Can somebody explain to me on what authority the US can request the arrest of a Chinese national on Canadian soil for any action they took while conducting operations of a Chinese organization headquartered in China?
- donohoe 8y agoThey don't have any. They asked Canada to arrest her and they agreed to do it.
- cedivad 8y agoJust watch them come up with something.
- donohoe 8y agoNot sure what you mean. They have come up with something - violating sanctions against Iran.
- cedivad 8y agoWhich to me doesn't sound that different from the above comment talking about Thailand wanting to extradite westerns for offending their king, breaking their law. The something doesn't matter, it's not why she is in trouble.
- fastball 8y agoIf you don't want to be fucked by the US don't fuck with US sanctions?
- bjcy 8y agoAs a point of clarification, the Guardian article referenced above reports a request from Thailand to extradite Thai nationals living overseas. Thailand's lèse-majesté law was broken by Thais, as opposed to this case where a foreign national broke a US law and was present in an extradition-friendly country (to note, the sanctions are also law in Canada).
- cedivad 8y agoSo what you are saying is not even Thailand is that much up their asses to behave like the US does in international relationships, this idea of having jurisdiction over anyone all the time is unique to the US.
- thaumasiotes 8y agoI assume it's basically the same authority that China would use if they wanted to arrest somebody who happened to be in Laos -- "what's Laos/Canada going to do, say no?"
- ucaetano 8y agoThey can ask Canada to do so, usually through legal cooperation/assistance agreements. But it remains Canada's decision to help or not.
- frabbit 8y agoObviously Trudeau decided that Trump is such a great ally that he would facilitate US attempts to disrupt Chinese trade despite having spent several billion on a pipeline to export oil to China. Hmmmm.
- chapium 8y agoShe allegedly broke US law and was in the territory of a country that shares an extradition treaty with the US.
- comboy 8y agoHow sure can I be if my company is not breaking any Chinese laws? Would it by fine if I get arrested for breaking those when I'm on a trip to Asia? I'm not saying that Huawei is innocent, I just agree with the downvoted comment that the situation seems ridiculous.
- tonyarkles 8y agoThat is the risk you take! It's not without precedent. For example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Elcom_Ltd. Russian citizen working for a Russian company, comes to the US to give a talk and is arrested for violating the DMCA.
- anonymous5133 8y agoIt does sound ridiculous but if you do break Chinese laws and travel to a country that has an extraditions treaty with china, then yes, you can get arrested and sent to China for prosecution. That's why it is important to only do business in countries you understand the law in or have business policies which are favorable to your business.
- Brushfire 8y agoWhen you do business in another country, you are subject to its laws. You can choose to not worry about other countries laws very easily: do not do any business there.
- comboy 8y agoI have no idea about details of Huawei situation, but if your product ends up in given country do you do business there? How about providing a website and not filtering users by country? In most countries laws are created faster than citizens can learn them even if they would put a lot of effort into that. In many cases those who vote them haven't even read them in detail. There is no single person on the planet who knows all laws in all countries. Should we abandon the idea of the Internet? It would be purely hypothetical pondering if not for GDPR which bring a lot of mess to countries outside EU and cut off some EU users from the content which they could otherwise consume. Unless regulators get their stuff together reasonably quick, we may likely end up in some more encrypted and decentralized version of the Internet which makes governments less relevant. I don't mind.
- mciak 8y agoSelling US devices (HP computers) in contravention of US sanctions (ITAR, probably) for payment that probably touched US banks
- ThrustVectoring 8y agoDollar-denominated transactions are enough, doesn't need to hit an explicitly US bank.
- dawhizkid 8y agoDid you read the article? US is alleging Huawei was shipping "U.S.-origin" products to Iran - probably U.S. made components for Huawei devices/technology. What "authority" do you need to ask for a favor from a friendly ally? Canada also has active economic sanctions against Iran.
- amingilani 8y agoHi there, just want to remind you of the HN guidelines: Please don't insinuate that someone hasn't read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that." I'm sure you forgot. We all make mistakes.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- janzij 8y agoPlease don't insinuate that someone hasn't read the HN guidelines.
- amingilani 8y agoI'm not sure if you're joking, but in case you're serious: I'm not :) I'm merely reminding. People forget lists of rules written in pages they don't frequently visit. It's no big deal. Fun fact, though: the guidelines say nothing about telling people to read the guidelines themselves ;)
- cwkoss 8y agoI can't tell you about the other set of guidelines that prohibit mention of themselves.... oops.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- jchw 8y ago
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dragonwriter 8y ago> Can somebody explain to me on what authority the US can arrest a Chinese national on Canadian soil Canada arrested him, not the US. If you mean, what is the authority for the US to ask Canada to do that, well, asking doesn't require any special authority; OTOH, the US does have an extradition treaty with Canada [0], and while trade sanctions violations don't appear to be an enumerated offense covered by the extradition treaty, sanctions violations tend to also involve false declarations and certain kinds of frauds, which are covered. [0] https://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-can-usa4.html https://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-c...
- dreamcompiler 8y agoThe article suggests she took US-made products and routed them to Iran through Huawei. That's a US crime, and the US can issue a warrant for her arrest, and if she shows up in a country with extradition to the US, she can get arrested. Which is apparently what happened.
- TallGuyShort 8y agoHuh - I always assumed that extradition treaties only applied to people traveling on passports of the relevant country.
- xapata 8y agoYour assumption was incorrect. Were you trying to imply something? If so, I didn't understand the implication.
- vtesucks 8y agoIn case you were wondering why you were downvoted (as I used to be), generally one (of the few) good thing about this forum is that personal opinions that don't add value arent encouraged.
- codedokode 8y agoWhy don't they arrest US citizens who sold those US products instead?
- wybiral 8y agoBecause the actual crime was the act of selling the tech to Iran.
- djsumdog 8y agoThis only works one way though. No one arrested Ronald Regan for selling guns to the contras to fund the revolution in Iran. The US gets to do this because might makes right.
- gammateam 8y agoIt doesnt, that why they asked their friend to do it. Some times the US later finds out that the arresting country’s courts found no authority or legality for their own country to arrest the person and wont continue with extradition. This happened in New Zealand. So typically a bit more research is needed and they find a way to get it right in future cases. Another thing the US does is send an FBI agent to merely observe the arrest, to ensure that it is later compatible with US courts as well. Its a lot of organizations to make happy but the US is essentially one of the only organizations with the resources and interest to bother. It is an interesting outcome of the nation state concept.
- LeifCarrotson 8y agoThe authority of this treaty: https://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-can-usa4.html https://www.oas.org/juridico/mla/en/traites/en_traites-ext-c...
- amingilani 8y agoThis comment is getting a lot of downvotes for a fairly straightforward question, so I just want to remind everyone about one of the HN guidelines: Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith.
- lightedman 8y agoYea, most people on HN abandoned that long ago, including the admins.
- DenisM 8y agoThe tone of the question reads angry and incredulous, not curious, hence the downvotes. You will also note that the poster of the question never came back to acknowledge the work people put into replying and explaining the situation. I believe that eduction wasn't the intent here.
- jshevek 8y agoI see nothing in the word choice of the grandparent comment to imply anger. Regarding "coming back", the poster may be in a different time zone or have an abnormal work / life schedule
- v-yadli 8y agoYour response shows a good example of not interpreting the strongest, or possibly the only intent, of the message. Your explanation is flawed because it’s derived from how you think of the speaker with no good faith.
- DenisM 8y agoIndeed I don't believe the speaker was asking in good faith. This is why I did not engage them directly, and only opined when the matter of downvotes came up - an explanation of the downvotes may prove helpful.
- 8y ago
- DannyBee 8y agoin which you discover that international law, in the end, has no natural source of authority in the same way domestic law does.
- wonthegame 8y agoReally? There are extradition agreements between Canada and he US... let’s say you murder someone. You can’t just leave the country and expect the new host to not care! What she is alleged to have done would be a crime in Canada too so her nationality isn’t relevant.
- londons_explore 8y agoIs she personally alleged to have done anything? It seems the only allegations are against Huawei, of which sh is just one of many board members, and there's a good chance she wasn't even involved with the deal the allegation is concerning.
- wonthegame 8y agoShe's the Chief Financial Officer which means she is at the top. She is an extension of the company and responsible for the companies financial decisions - which would include concerns related to sanctions.
- eh78ssxv2f 8y ago> You can’t just leave the country and expect the new host to not care! That's not a fair comparison. If any law was broken, it was definitely not broken on US soil. It would be like US arresting people that it thinks committed murders in China. > What she is alleged to have done would be a crime in Canada too so her nationality isn’t relevant. I think it is. It's also relevant where the crime occured. e.g., lets say some small country decides that it's illegal to wear grey color pants. Then, can they morally arrest any person anywhere in the world that they think wore grey color pants at any point in the time at any place in the world?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- dleslie 8y agoThe RCMP and FBI regularly cooperate on arrests. IE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Border_Declaration https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_Border_Declaration There's all sorts of similar agreements/declarations/etc. We have a rather fluid border for the arrest and extradition of individuals.
- siruncledrew 8y agoWhat I would like to know is how deals like this go down? Like does the US have some sort of agreement/incentive with Canada for them to spend their own effort on this? The US calling Canada on the phone and asking them to arrest someone they want seems too.. easy? I imagine there's a limit where goodwill only gets you so far, and then some sort of compensation is expected. Maybe there's a lot of backdoor Gov2Gov money funneling or economic deals, but idk. This seems like stuff that is opaque to average citizens.
- gtirloni 8y agoIf you search for "US canada extradiction treaty" you'll find there have been multiple treaties between both countries. It's fair well documented law.
- azernik 8y agoIt's a treaty, and there is a formal procedure for submitting extradition requests. For example, here is an article from the US DoJ article on requests for extradition from the US [https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-612-role-department-state-foreign-extradition-requests https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-612-role...]: > All extradition treaties currently in force require foreign requests for extradition to be submitted through diplomatic channels, usually from the country's embassy in Washington to the Department of State. Many treaties also require that requests for provisional arrest be submitted through diplomatic channels, although some permit provisional arrest requests to be sent directly to the Department of Justice. The Department of State reviews foreign extradition demands to identify any potential foreign policy problems and to ensure that there is a treaty in force between the United States and the country making the request, that the crime or crimes are extraditable offenses, and that the supporting documents are properly certified in accordance with 18 U.S.C. § 3190. If the request is in proper order, an attorney in the State Department's Office of the Legal Adviser prepares a certificate attesting to the existence of the treaty, etc., and forwards it with the original request to the Office of International Affairs. For the Canadian version, see https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.html https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.htm...: """ There are three key stages to the Canadian extradition process: The Minister of Justice must determine whether to authorize the commencement of extradition proceedings in the Canadian courts by issuing an “Authority to Proceed” ; Where an Authority to Proceed has been issued, the Canadian courts must determine whether there is sufficient evidence to justify the person’s committal for extradition; and Where the person is committed for extradition, the Minister of Justice must personally decide whether to order the person’s surrender to the foreign state. A person sought for extradition may appeal their committal and seek judicial review of the Minister’s surrender order. In all cases, the conduct for which extradition is sought must be considered criminal in both the requesting country and in Canada. This is known as “dual criminality”. Central Authorities from outside Canada are encouraged to contact the IAG to determine what is required to make an extradition request to Canada, including the evidentiary requirements, and whether provisional arrest is appropriate in a given situation. """
- lvs 8y agoSanctions governing trade with Iran have been codified through multiple acts of Congress and are overseen under the Departments of Treasury, Commerce, and State, under Title 31 statute, with additional regulatory aspects within Titles 15 and 22. The statute (31 CFR 560.205) makes reexportation of US goods from a third party country by a non-US person explicitly illegal under US law. To the second aspect of your question, Canada is under treaty obligation to cooperate with extradition requests issued by US courts for fugitive apprehension, and Canadian courts will rule on whether the extradition is consistent with Canadian law before transferring the suspect to US federal custody. Welcome to the rule of law.
- 08-15 8y agoOn the authority of Justin Trudeau having no balls.
- ticmasta 8y ago1. The US charge is "shipping U.S.-origin products to Iran and other countries in violation of U.S. export and sanctions laws" 2. Canada has similar embargo laws on the books. 3. Canada has a multi-lateral extradition treaty with the US 4. The crime is considered serious with a maximum penalty (in the US) of up to 20 years in prison plus substantial monetary fines. So she's accused of a serious crime in the US that's also recognized as a crime in Canada, and the countries have an extradition treaty.
- spenvo 8y agoCould that product be Android or does Huawei use a non-Play store version that is exempted?
- Kalium 8y agoThat's a very interesting question! However, it may not be salient. It's allegedly HP computer equipment - https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-huawei-skycom/exclusive-huawei-cfo-linked-to-firm-that-offered-hp-gear-to-iran-idUKBRE90U0CA20130131 https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-huawei-skycom/exclusive-h...
- ajross 8y agoYou could try to make a case about Android, but as you posit an open source internationally available source base would be hard to prosecute. This is surely about hardware.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- TangoTrotFox 8y agoThe real answer is quite straight forward. In the end international and governmental actions come down to clout, which in turn comes down to power. The governments with the most power will always do whatever they want to do, and impose their desires on other governments. The crackdown on online poker was a striking example of this. To give cliff notes the US, heavily influenced by casino lobbyists, decided to ban online poker. Online poker sites were operating in foreign countries obeying all laws domestically applied to them. In spite of the fact that sites were operating within all laws that domestically applied to them, the US decided to act because they refused to overtly ban US players. In an extremely rapid action the US simultaneously confiscated the domains of these sites, and executed arrest warrants on many of the involved individuals including surreptitious raids and extraditions from places including South/Central America, and froze numerous bank accounts around the world including in places such as Ireland. The US is powerful enough that its own desire is sufficient authority to enact any action. Guantanamo Bay is a great example. This is not a just a US property under US law. It is operated as a US territory but mostly independent of US legal authority. The Geneva Convention is disregarded as convenient. For instance the three prisoners that were reported as having committed suicide (which would result in condemnation in Islamic belief) were allegedly tortured to death at a secret facility in Guantanamo, known as 'Camp No' (as in, no it does not exist), detached from the main camp. [1] [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_No https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_No
- supergirl 8y agothe authority of the biggest military of all countries
- notyourday 8y agoEverything that you need to know to evaluate international relations can be learned in a school yard. Canada: 5'4 @110 lb kid in glasses with a pocket protector. Very smart. Has adoring crowd that claps. US: the 6'1 220lb line backer built in the same school yard Arrested Chinese exec: 4'10, 78lb daughter of a family from a different school somewhere over there. That school has lots of those like the US, US sometimes exchanges words with that school but they are somewhere over there. Girls shows up in a schoolyard with Canada and the US. US tells Canada: "Give her to me. I have some business with her".