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I know cryptocurrencies are popular here but IMHO crypto should be immediately banned before they start generating more and more emissions.

by jf22 8y ago

reidjs 8y ago
How do you propose we ban them?
- paulmd 8y ago
  Begin tracking and disrupting the node networks via which blocks are propagated. Run tainted nodes which track IPs submitting transactions or full-clients requesting blocks, use Tor traffic analysis to work back to any cloaked users. Disrupt the IRC channels that allow bootstrapping, poison P2P listings. ISP-level/backbone-level deep packet inspection to identify nodes (doesn't need to be unencrypted, you can fingerprint connections from deep-learned traffic analysis and connection characteristics, see: Great Firewall). Then traffic/network analysis working from known nodes to identify other likely nodes in the network. General attacks on any crypto services or infrastructure advertised in public fashion (eg light-client providers, exchanges, tumblers). (the NSA has all these cool toys... it'd be a shame not to use them!) You can also make it virtually impossible to interchange cryptos into real cash, which guts the utility of it for most users. Ban exchanges from operating or offering services to customers in first-world countries, extradite those who persist. Sting operations on local-btc transactions. Apply RICO/war-on-drugs style roll-em-up tactics on those who persist - you're going to jail for 20 years unless you give up someone worth knowing or help us break some network worth breaking. The achilles' heel of the crypto world is that it's anonymous until you try and do something in the real world, and the financial system is an obvious point to attack from. If we can take down Silk Road, we can take down other things in the crypto-world as well. I'd much rather our law enforcement concentrate on fighting a War on Cryptocurrency than a War on Drugs. Would certainly take cooperation from most of the first world as well as China, but China already imposes some pretty draconian stuff on their internet users. They're not thrilled with people using it to move money offshore, they're not thrilled with all the crypto users stealing electricity, they'd probably be down for cracking down too. Oh yeah, legalize a bunch of drugs and decriminalize everything else, and you pretty much gut the crypto-economy. A massive amount of the crypto-economy centers around Silk Road-style operations and you can easily gut those with the stroke of a pen. Most users stop caring and the crypto-economy then largely collapses. The number of people who actually want murder markets or kiddie porn and are willing to do shady cash-for-bitcoin deals in a van in a Wal-Mart parking lot is not enough to actually sustain the market on their own. Crypto only works because there's a veneer of legality, drug markets that people want to access, and relatively easy interchange to and from FILTHY GOVERNMENT FIAT, and we can nuke all three of those. Then you just clean up anyone still stupid enough to participate.
- shard972 8y ago
  The same way you ban carbon emissions.
usaar333 8y ago
Does that have to be the case? Crypto mining can be done in areas with surplus hydroelectric power that can't be efficiently distributed elsewhere.
- jf22 8y ago
  This is a great point.
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  But in reality, this by and large isn't what's happening. Some mining is done with surplus hydroelectric power. A lot isn't. I don't think crypto should be banned because I don't know how you'd enforce that effectively, but it's a real issue.
  - shard972 8y ago
    > I don't think crypto should be banned because I don't know how you'd enforce that effectively, but it's a real issue. You can't think of how cyrpto could be clamped down on but i assume your onboard with taxing carbon? Because i can't think how you would enforce that effectively.
aaron_m04 8y ago
That's a very ignorant opinion, considering that proof-of-stake cryptocurrencies have insignificant emissions.
- jf22 8y ago
  Sure, there are probably nuances to account for like how much energy generation is used.
  - hwillis 8y ago
    Not sure if you're understanding what he's saying, but just in case: Bitcoin and similar are Proof-of-Work currencies, which have you do arbitrary hashes to prove that you deserve a vote on the blockchain. The cost of that computing energy makes it infeasible to generate bad votes when the entire community is voting against you. Ethereum and similar are Proof-of-Stake, which require you to own coins to vote on the blockchain. That doesn't require any computational effort since it's easy to verify that you actually own the currency. Given that it's distributed, it still requires more energy to reach consensus than a centralized system, but it's basically infinitesimal. For all practical purposes it can be ignored.
    - jf22 8y ago
      Oh I see, thanks for pointing that out.
dreamcompiler 8y ago
For Bitcoin at least, that's already happening simply because of market forces. It now costs (very roughly) twice as much to mine a Bitcoin as one is worth, so mining is no longer economical.

I know cryptocurrencies are popular here but IMHO crypto should be immediately banned before they start generating more and more emissions.

by jf22 8y ago

I know cryptocurrencies are popular here but IMHO crypto should be immediately banned before they start generating more and more emissions.

reidjs 8y ago

How do you propose we ban them?

paulmd 8y ago
Begin tracking and disrupting the node networks via which blocks are propagated. Run tainted nodes which track IPs submitting transactions or full-clients requesting blocks, use Tor traffic analysis to work back to any cloaked users. Disrupt the IRC channels that allow bootstrapping, poison P2P listings. ISP-level/backbone-level deep packet inspection to identify nodes (doesn't need to be unencrypted, you can fingerprint connections from deep-learned traffic analysis and connection characteristics, see: Great Firewall). Then traffic/network analysis working from known nodes to identify other likely nodes in the network. General attacks on any crypto services or infrastructure advertised in public fashion (eg light-client providers, exchanges, tumblers). (the NSA has all these cool toys... it'd be a shame not to use them!) You can also make it virtually impossible to interchange cryptos into real cash, which guts the utility of it for most users. Ban exchanges from operating or offering services to customers in first-world countries, extradite those who persist. Sting operations on local-btc transactions. Apply RICO/war-on-drugs style roll-em-up tactics on those who persist - you're going to jail for 20 years unless you give up someone worth knowing or help us break some network worth breaking. The achilles' heel of the crypto world is that it's anonymous until you try and do something in the real world, and the financial system is an obvious point to attack from. If we can take down Silk Road, we can take down other things in the crypto-world as well. I'd much rather our law enforcement concentrate on fighting a War on Cryptocurrency than a War on Drugs. Would certainly take cooperation from most of the first world as well as China, but China already imposes some pretty draconian stuff on their internet users. They're not thrilled with people using it to move money offshore, they're not thrilled with all the crypto users stealing electricity, they'd probably be down for cracking down too. Oh yeah, legalize a bunch of drugs and decriminalize everything else, and you pretty much gut the crypto-economy. A massive amount of the crypto-economy centers around Silk Road-style operations and you can easily gut those with the stroke of a pen. Most users stop caring and the crypto-economy then largely collapses. The number of people who actually want murder markets or kiddie porn and are willing to do shady cash-for-bitcoin deals in a van in a Wal-Mart parking lot is not enough to actually sustain the market on their own. Crypto only works because there's a veneer of legality, drug markets that people want to access, and relatively easy interchange to and from FILTHY GOVERNMENT FIAT, and we can nuke all three of those. Then you just clean up anyone still stupid enough to participate.
shard972 8y ago
The same way you ban carbon emissions.

usaar333 8y ago

Does that have to be the case? Crypto mining can be done in areas with surplus hydroelectric power that can't be efficiently distributed elsewhere.

jf22 8y ago
This is a great point.
Wowfunhappy 8y ago
But in reality, this by and large isn't what's happening. Some mining is done with surplus hydroelectric power. A lot isn't. I don't think crypto should be banned because I don't know how you'd enforce that effectively, but it's a real issue.
- shard972 8y ago
  > I don't think crypto should be banned because I don't know how you'd enforce that effectively, but it's a real issue. You can't think of how cyrpto could be clamped down on but i assume your onboard with taxing carbon? Because i can't think how you would enforce that effectively.

aaron_m04 8y ago

That's a very ignorant opinion, considering that proof-of-stake cryptocurrencies have insignificant emissions.

jf22 8y ago
Sure, there are probably nuances to account for like how much energy generation is used.
- hwillis 8y ago
  Not sure if you're understanding what he's saying, but just in case: Bitcoin and similar are Proof-of-Work currencies, which have you do arbitrary hashes to prove that you deserve a vote on the blockchain. The cost of that computing energy makes it infeasible to generate bad votes when the entire community is voting against you. Ethereum and similar are Proof-of-Stake, which require you to own coins to vote on the blockchain. That doesn't require any computational effort since it's easy to verify that you actually own the currency. Given that it's distributed, it still requires more energy to reach consensus than a centralized system, but it's basically infinitesimal. For all practical purposes it can be ignored.
  - jf22 8y ago
    Oh I see, thanks for pointing that out.

dreamcompiler 8y ago

For Bitcoin at least, that's already happening simply because of market forces. It now costs (very roughly) twice as much to mine a Bitcoin as one is worth, so mining is no longer economical.