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> “Again [it's] the female card that has caused so much damage in such a short time, not just at Facebook,” another poster wrote. I don’t think I’ve ever read

> “Again [it's] the female card that has caused so much damage in such a short time, not just at Facebook,” another poster wrote. I don’t think I’ve ever read such a deeply toxic comment in my life. On the surface polite, but underneath such a corrupt worldview. Good on Sheryl for just surviving in an environment with people like that.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
seatdrummer 8y ago
Really? Do you think that women simultaneously being the victim and being empowered, the company bending over backwards to increase female numbers and create special awards/events specifically for women won't create some frustration among the innocent male employees who have to pretend like they have to change the way they act around women to avoid talking over them, watching their time around women ( things like saying "Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go"). The slightest criticism against women needs to be considered through a lens of misogyny and if it's plausible you keep quiet. It's just as simple as ignoring whatever the diversity efforts say about you and the situation at work. Don't divulge even a glimpse that you aren't along for the ride. Honestly sometimes silence or lack of enthusiasm makes you suspect. It's very obvious that gender equality being achieved in the workplace is not via reduced discrimination, but by hiring women at a very flexible bar. It's so painfully obvious in my organization and frankly im embarrassed for the qualified women who are getting tarnished by the changes.
- orcdork 8y ago
  "Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go" Or maybe you keep such shitty things to yourself and the painfully obvious is visible to anyone but you.
  - coryfklein 8y ago
    If a woman were to say "my ball and chain won't let me go," most sjws today would sympathize with her and help to "empower" her. When a man says it, it's a "shitty thing to say".
  - seatdrummer 8y ago
    Honestly don't see the problem with that line. I can't imagine how many times a woman has referred to her husband as another one of the kids to take care of. Its not shitty, its insanely normal (and its a joke) and youre just being dramatic.
    - orcdork 8y ago
      Again, maybe you’re missing the painfully obvious when honestly not seeing any issues with that line.
      - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
        He isn't.
- aplummer 8y ago
  People are hiring more women because it improves performance and productivity [1]. It is true people would expect you to “change the way you act” so as not to make women literally uncomfortable around you, how outrageous that you should have to do this. > The slightest criticism against women needs to be considered through a lens of misogyny and if it's plausible you keep quiet. > It's very obvious that gender equality being achieved in the workplace is not via reduced discrimination, but by hiring women at a very flexible bar. Wrong on both, and you have no evidence to support this. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter
  - coryfklein 8y ago
    "Does it make somebody feel uncomfortable" is a terrible standard to use when deciding whether something is OK or not. Growing up Mormon, I felt extremely uncomfortable when co-workers drank alcohol in the office, even in after-hours social contexts. Does that mean I had a legitimate grievance to ask those around me not to drink? We can certainly come up with gender neutral standards about what kind of speech or activities are OK and which are not OK, but if we go with "does it make women feel uncomfortable" then we also need to extend it to "does it make Mormons feel uncomfortable" and "does it make polyamorists feel uncomfortable," and so on ad infinitum.
  - sheepmullet 8y ago
    > People are hiring more women because it improves performance and productivity [1]. I think the hbr article has cause and effect backwards. It’s obvious that wealthy stable high margin businesses can afford to focus on diversity initiatives. If we were actually confident that diverse teams were better then gender and race would no longer need to be protected groups.
  - seatdrummer 8y ago
    >so as not to make women literally uncomfortable around you, how outrageous that you should have to do this. One could make a similar argument for not calling out racism to avoid making people uncomfortable.
  - sophistication 8y ago
malvosenior 8y ago
I don't think it's toxic, it's an accurate observation. As soon as you let gender politics into the building, you've started an unwinnable war between the sexes that will ultimately rip your company apart. It's very telling that the people commenting on this have to do it with Blind as they're obviously afraid of voicing their opinion in public. That type of fear is only going to fester and grow. Same with the comment from the black ex-employee about how there are more Black Lives Matter posters than actual black employees (which I don't doubt for a second). There is no way to play these progressive games at work that won't come back and shoot you in the foot from the left, right and center. Keep politics out of the workplace.
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  It’s impossible to keep “keep politics out of the workplace”. What you’re advocating is just as political. You just don’t notice it because you consider an office full of bros to be the “natural” state of affairs.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    The absence of political activism is not a political statement.
    - davidgould 8y ago
      lt very well can be, both: * Silence is consent. * If you know what is good for you, you will be quiet. Are political.
      - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
        Silence is consent.* Wait, what? Are you sure you want to assert that? Because that's going to make things really complicated for the #MeToo movement.
        davidgould 8y ago
coryfklein 8y ago
Should women be able to "play the female card" to get something they otherwise wouldn't have? Should men be able to "play the male card" to get something they otherwise wouldn't have? You either say yes to both, or no to both. If corporate politics has cultured an environment where there is even such a thing as a "female card" or a "male card", then that's a failing.
- AlexandrB 8y ago
  > Should men be able to "play the male card" to get something they otherwise wouldn't have? In most organizations the male card is automatically in play and must be explicitly un-played. That's what is usually meant by "patriarchy".
  - coryfklein 8y ago
    How does one explicitly "un-play" their male card then? I'm male, and if I have implicitly played mine I'd love to reverse that to do my fair share to give women equality on the workplace. I suspect when you say that the male card is automatically in play, you aren't referring to something that men are automatically doing, but rather some facet of the system that favors men. In which case, changing the system is the correct approach, not introducing unbalanced social norms approving of women "playing the female card". I also suspect that even I am taking this "play the card" analogy far beyond its usefulness haha. I'd much rather talk about actual systems or behaviors in concrete terms that broker little room for misunderstanding.
    - aplummer 8y ago
      > How does one explicitly "un-play" their male card then? I'm male, and if I have implicitly played mine I'd love to reverse that to do my fair share to give women equality on the workplace. It can come up like, turn down a game of golf when women aren’t invited, or invite them. Suggesting people who aren’t like you for teams as well.
  - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
    God, what a load of entitled bullshit this is. Please take your identity politics somewhere else.
rapind 8y ago
Definitely a disagreeable comment (in my opinion), but to say it's the most deeply toxic comment you've read in your life? First day on the internet? I come across worse on a daily basis, and I'm not hanging out on 4chan either. Not saying this to nitpick or attack. I just wanted to point out that exaggerated outrage fuels the trolls and tends to make reasonable people tune out. I think it would be sufficient to simply state it was "a negative and misguided comment".
- aplummer 8y ago
  Fair call ^
calhoun137 8y ago
"I don’t think I’ve ever read such a deeply toxic comment in my life" I find this pretty hard to believe, you must have read something on the internet more toxic than that! I don't think the person being quoted means what you think they do, unless you assume the absolute worst about them, and I don't see how we have enough information to make a judgement one way or the other about this persons worldview. In the previous paragraph we read another quote from the message boards “One does not simply fire the author of ‘Lean In’ and pretty much the sole female executive in top leadership,” Isn't the part of the culture that is truly toxic that she is "pretty much the sole female executive in leadership"?
- aplummer 8y ago
  On your first point, yeah I agree, previous comment called it out. Agree on the last point too.
rhizome 8y ago
I'm sure FB has their share of James Damores.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  By that, do you mean people who write memos to discuss ways of reducing discrimination as well as attracting and retaining more diverse talent?
  - rhizome 8y ago
    No.
    - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
      In that case, you might want to read Damore’s memo. It’s not what you think.
      - rhizome 8y ago
        I didn't say there were more memos, I said there would be plenty of his way of thinking.
        lawnchair_larry 8y ago
        But the point is that would be a good thing.
        rhizome 8y ago
        Whose point?
archagon 8y ago
Blind is a cesspool of racism, sexism, and general stupidity. Best and brightest indeed.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

seatdrummer 8y ago

Really? Do you think that women simultaneously being the victim and being empowered, the company bending over backwards to increase female numbers and create special awards/events specifically for women won't create some frustration among the innocent male employees who have to pretend like they have to change the way they act around women to avoid talking over them, watching their time around women ( things like saying "Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go"). The slightest criticism against women needs to be considered through a lens of misogyny and if it's plausible you keep quiet. It's just as simple as ignoring whatever the diversity efforts say about you and the situation at work. Don't divulge even a glimpse that you aren't along for the ride. Honestly sometimes silence or lack of enthusiasm makes you suspect. It's very obvious that gender equality being achieved in the workplace is not via reduced discrimination, but by hiring women at a very flexible bar. It's so painfully obvious in my organization and frankly im embarrassed for the qualified women who are getting tarnished by the changes.

orcdork 8y ago
"Id love to go out but my ball and chain won't let me go" Or maybe you keep such shitty things to yourself and the painfully obvious is visible to anyone but you.
- coryfklein 8y ago
  If a woman were to say "my ball and chain won't let me go," most sjws today would sympathize with her and help to "empower" her. When a man says it, it's a "shitty thing to say".
- seatdrummer 8y ago
  Honestly don't see the problem with that line. I can't imagine how many times a woman has referred to her husband as another one of the kids to take care of. Its not shitty, its insanely normal (and its a joke) and youre just being dramatic.
  - orcdork 8y ago
    Again, maybe you’re missing the painfully obvious when honestly not seeing any issues with that line.
    - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
      He isn't.
aplummer 8y ago
People are hiring more women because it improves performance and productivity [1]. It is true people would expect you to “change the way you act” so as not to make women literally uncomfortable around you, how outrageous that you should have to do this. > The slightest criticism against women needs to be considered through a lens of misogyny and if it's plausible you keep quiet. > It's very obvious that gender equality being achieved in the workplace is not via reduced discrimination, but by hiring women at a very flexible bar. Wrong on both, and you have no evidence to support this. [1] https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter https://hbr.org/2016/11/why-diverse-teams-are-smarter
- coryfklein 8y ago
  "Does it make somebody feel uncomfortable" is a terrible standard to use when deciding whether something is OK or not. Growing up Mormon, I felt extremely uncomfortable when co-workers drank alcohol in the office, even in after-hours social contexts. Does that mean I had a legitimate grievance to ask those around me not to drink? We can certainly come up with gender neutral standards about what kind of speech or activities are OK and which are not OK, but if we go with "does it make women feel uncomfortable" then we also need to extend it to "does it make Mormons feel uncomfortable" and "does it make polyamorists feel uncomfortable," and so on ad infinitum.
- sheepmullet 8y ago
  > People are hiring more women because it improves performance and productivity [1]. I think the hbr article has cause and effect backwards. It’s obvious that wealthy stable high margin businesses can afford to focus on diversity initiatives. If we were actually confident that diverse teams were better then gender and race would no longer need to be protected groups.
- seatdrummer 8y ago
  >so as not to make women literally uncomfortable around you, how outrageous that you should have to do this. One could make a similar argument for not calling out racism to avoid making people uncomfortable.
- sophistication 8y ago

malvosenior 8y ago

I don't think it's toxic, it's an accurate observation. As soon as you let gender politics into the building, you've started an unwinnable war between the sexes that will ultimately rip your company apart. It's very telling that the people commenting on this have to do it with Blind as they're obviously afraid of voicing their opinion in public. That type of fear is only going to fester and grow. Same with the comment from the black ex-employee about how there are more Black Lives Matter posters than actual black employees (which I don't doubt for a second). There is no way to play these progressive games at work that won't come back and shoot you in the foot from the left, right and center. Keep politics out of the workplace.

shaki-dora 8y ago
It’s impossible to keep “keep politics out of the workplace”. What you’re advocating is just as political. You just don’t notice it because you consider an office full of bros to be the “natural” state of affairs.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  The absence of political activism is not a political statement.
  - davidgould 8y ago
    lt very well can be, both: * Silence is consent. * If you know what is good for you, you will be quiet. Are political.
    - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
      Silence is consent.* Wait, what? Are you sure you want to assert that? Because that's going to make things really complicated for the #MeToo movement.
      - davidgould 8y ago

coryfklein 8y ago

Should women be able to "play the female card" to get something they otherwise wouldn't have? Should men be able to "play the male card" to get something they otherwise wouldn't have? You either say yes to both, or no to both. If corporate politics has cultured an environment where there is even such a thing as a "female card" or a "male card", then that's a failing.

AlexandrB 8y ago
> Should men be able to "play the male card" to get something they otherwise wouldn't have? In most organizations the male card is automatically in play and must be explicitly un-played. That's what is usually meant by "patriarchy".
- coryfklein 8y ago
  How does one explicitly "un-play" their male card then? I'm male, and if I have implicitly played mine I'd love to reverse that to do my fair share to give women equality on the workplace. I suspect when you say that the male card is automatically in play, you aren't referring to something that men are automatically doing, but rather some facet of the system that favors men. In which case, changing the system is the correct approach, not introducing unbalanced social norms approving of women "playing the female card". I also suspect that even I am taking this "play the card" analogy far beyond its usefulness haha. I'd much rather talk about actual systems or behaviors in concrete terms that broker little room for misunderstanding.
  - aplummer 8y ago
    > How does one explicitly "un-play" their male card then? I'm male, and if I have implicitly played mine I'd love to reverse that to do my fair share to give women equality on the workplace. It can come up like, turn down a game of golf when women aren’t invited, or invite them. Suggesting people who aren’t like you for teams as well.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  God, what a load of entitled bullshit this is. Please take your identity politics somewhere else.

rapind 8y ago

Definitely a disagreeable comment (in my opinion), but to say it's the most deeply toxic comment you've read in your life? First day on the internet? I come across worse on a daily basis, and I'm not hanging out on 4chan either. Not saying this to nitpick or attack. I just wanted to point out that exaggerated outrage fuels the trolls and tends to make reasonable people tune out. I think it would be sufficient to simply state it was "a negative and misguided comment".

aplummer 8y ago
Fair call ^

calhoun137 8y ago

"I don’t think I’ve ever read such a deeply toxic comment in my life" I find this pretty hard to believe, you must have read something on the internet more toxic than that! I don't think the person being quoted means what you think they do, unless you assume the absolute worst about them, and I don't see how we have enough information to make a judgement one way or the other about this persons worldview. In the previous paragraph we read another quote from the message boards “One does not simply fire the author of ‘Lean In’ and pretty much the sole female executive in top leadership,” Isn't the part of the culture that is truly toxic that she is "pretty much the sole female executive in leadership"?

aplummer 8y ago
On your first point, yeah I agree, previous comment called it out. Agree on the last point too.

rhizome 8y ago

I'm sure FB has their share of James Damores.

lawnchair_larry 8y ago
By that, do you mean people who write memos to discuss ways of reducing discrimination as well as attracting and retaining more diverse talent?
- rhizome 8y ago
  No.
  - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
    In that case, you might want to read Damore’s memo. It’s not what you think.
    - rhizome 8y ago
      I didn't say there were more memos, I said there would be plenty of his way of thinking.
      - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
        But the point is that would be a good thing.
        rhizome 8y ago
        Whose point?

archagon 8y ago

Blind is a cesspool of racism, sexism, and general stupidity. Best and brightest indeed.