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This isn't strictly true. Professional athletes in major leagues are unionized, and their jobs are highly specialized and well paid. The Writers Guild of Americ

This isn't strictly true. Professional athletes in major leagues are unionized, and their jobs are highly specialized and well paid. The Writers Guild of America is another union that represents a non-manual labor profession. You could also consider the American Medical Association as a pseudounion guild that restricts entry into the medical field and keeps wages high.

toomuchtodo 8y ago
As well as the Screen Actor's Guild. "SAG-AFTRA represents approximately 160,000 actors, announcers, broadcast journalists, dancers, DJs, news writers, news editors, program hosts, puppeteers, recording artists, singers, stunt performers, voiceover artists and other media professionals." https://www.sagaftra.org/home https://www.sagaftra.org/home
- duxup 8y ago
  My wife was a part of a union that covered theater workers. Their group medical benefits were "you pay for it and submit each bill individually". It was pretty brutal, they showed no interest in changing it at the time.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - toomuchtodo 8y ago
    Progress is a function of effort, not time. Default to action, push whenever feasible to fix what is broken.
    - duxup 8y ago
      I find many union's efforts to be lacking generally.
- santoriv 8y ago
  As well as the American Federation of Musicians. When I was a freelance orchestral musician I loved the union. There was a huge difference in how you were treated during union vs non-union gigs.
duxup 8y ago
Like I said it was a general statement, but professional athletes are kinda a different animal considering their "laobr" is in high demand and very rare at their skill level. That's a pretty distant comparison. Same goes for doctors where they're not readily replaceable considering training / licensing requirements.
- samfisher83 8y ago
  Pro Athletes are like 1% of the 1%. Even the 12th guy on the roster was like the best player on his college team. I am not sure if everyone in google was the best coder in their college.
- SilasX 8y ago
  >Like I said it was a general statement, but professional athletes are kinda a different animal considering their "laobr" is in high demand and very rare at their skill level. Er, what? That was the point. You: Unions are mainly effective for low-skill, manual jobs. ForHackernews: But they have them for professional athletes and actors too. You: Irrelevant, they're a whole different animal. Yes, the point all along was that the union model applies to different animals/worker-types.
  - Apocryphon 8y ago
    Also, they failed to address screenwriters, who have a creative specialist occupation that is vaguely more similar to software engineers.
    - SilasX 8y ago
      Interesting, never thought about that one. And it's also similar in terms of tons of unqualified people trying to get in, and a low barrier to entry (in terms of producing recognizable work)...
samfisher83 8y ago
AMA is great for doctors. You need a license to practice you don't need a license to code. I don't think it wouldn't really apply to programmers.
- mkirklions 8y ago
  The AMA is everything that is wrong with American Healthcare. They have enforced the Physician monopoly to the point where its cronyism. There is a reason Physicians make 300k/yr.
  - ryandrake 8y ago
    But it’s good for the members of the profession, which is the point of its existence. No doubt a similarly structured “programmers’ guild” would be equally good—for programmers.
    - stale2002 8y ago
      It would only be good for the programmers who kiss the ring and the already priviledged. It will screw over everyone else. I will never ever support an organization that puts up artificial barriers to what is currently a very open work industry. I would join the group just to sabotage it if they tried to keep out bootcampers or people without a CS degree. Anyone should be allowed to program.
      - ForHackernews 8y ago
        IMO, there should professional licensing gated by an exam, similar to the accounting or actuarial professions. Anyone who can pass the exams gets in. But the flip side of being a real profession is you're liable if you store passwords in plaintext.
      - llampx 8y ago
        On the other hand, they are the reason a doctor or lawyer trained in India can not come to the US and directly start practicing, aside from the Indian lawyer not knowing US law, which they could potentially learn just as they learn java. No negative sentiment implied here. I am an immigrant myself.
ryanmercer 8y ago
And federal government employees have a union, the American Federation of Government Employees, the vast majority of which are office workers. Something like 670,000 members.

toomuchtodo 8y ago

As well as the Screen Actor's Guild. "SAG-AFTRA represents approximately 160,000 actors, announcers, broadcast journalists, dancers, DJs, news writers, news editors, program hosts, puppeteers, recording artists, singers, stunt performers, voiceover artists and other media professionals." https://www.sagaftra.org/home https://www.sagaftra.org/home

duxup 8y ago
My wife was a part of a union that covered theater workers. Their group medical benefits were "you pay for it and submit each bill individually". It was pretty brutal, they showed no interest in changing it at the time.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- toomuchtodo 8y ago
  Progress is a function of effort, not time. Default to action, push whenever feasible to fix what is broken.
  - duxup 8y ago
    I find many union's efforts to be lacking generally.
santoriv 8y ago
As well as the American Federation of Musicians. When I was a freelance orchestral musician I loved the union. There was a huge difference in how you were treated during union vs non-union gigs.

duxup 8y ago

Like I said it was a general statement, but professional athletes are kinda a different animal considering their "laobr" is in high demand and very rare at their skill level. That's a pretty distant comparison. Same goes for doctors where they're not readily replaceable considering training / licensing requirements.

samfisher83 8y ago
Pro Athletes are like 1% of the 1%. Even the 12th guy on the roster was like the best player on his college team. I am not sure if everyone in google was the best coder in their college.
SilasX 8y ago
>Like I said it was a general statement, but professional athletes are kinda a different animal considering their "laobr" is in high demand and very rare at their skill level. Er, what? That was the point. You: Unions are mainly effective for low-skill, manual jobs. ForHackernews: But they have them for professional athletes and actors too. You: Irrelevant, they're a whole different animal. Yes, the point all along was that the union model applies to different animals/worker-types.
- Apocryphon 8y ago
  Also, they failed to address screenwriters, who have a creative specialist occupation that is vaguely more similar to software engineers.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    Interesting, never thought about that one. And it's also similar in terms of tons of unqualified people trying to get in, and a low barrier to entry (in terms of producing recognizable work)...

samfisher83 8y ago

AMA is great for doctors. You need a license to practice you don't need a license to code. I don't think it wouldn't really apply to programmers.

mkirklions 8y ago
The AMA is everything that is wrong with American Healthcare. They have enforced the Physician monopoly to the point where its cronyism. There is a reason Physicians make 300k/yr.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  But it’s good for the members of the profession, which is the point of its existence. No doubt a similarly structured “programmers’ guild” would be equally good—for programmers.
  - stale2002 8y ago
    It would only be good for the programmers who kiss the ring and the already priviledged. It will screw over everyone else. I will never ever support an organization that puts up artificial barriers to what is currently a very open work industry. I would join the group just to sabotage it if they tried to keep out bootcampers or people without a CS degree. Anyone should be allowed to program.
    - ForHackernews 8y ago
      IMO, there should professional licensing gated by an exam, similar to the accounting or actuarial professions. Anyone who can pass the exams gets in. But the flip side of being a real profession is you're liable if you store passwords in plaintext.
    - llampx 8y ago
      On the other hand, they are the reason a doctor or lawyer trained in India can not come to the US and directly start practicing, aside from the Indian lawyer not knowing US law, which they could potentially learn just as they learn java. No negative sentiment implied here. I am an immigrant myself.

ryanmercer 8y ago

And federal government employees have a union, the American Federation of Government Employees, the vast majority of which are office workers. Something like 670,000 members.