5 ms·

A simple on/off button on the fob would work, and probably extend the battery life by a few years.

by cronix 8y ago

JustSomeNobody 8y ago
Ah, yes, let's put the burden back on the user after we promised them something easier. We should just go back to traditional keys if this is the case.
- burfog 8y ago
  Please yes. Traditional keys fit on my keyring, can survive the clothes washer, don't unlock doors by accident, can open a car with a dead battery, don't have their own battery issues, and can be brought into restricted work environments where radio transmitters are banned. I want key holes in all doors. I want to insert a key to start the car.
  - rootusrootus 8y ago
    About half of those problems don't really exist, in my opinion. I've washed the keyfob (it is waterproof), it has a built in key if the car battery is ever dead, I've never actually had to replace a fob battery. Personally I don't carry any keys so having a small round-ish object in my pocket that doesn't stab me in the leg when I sit down is a preferable situation.
    - calabin 8y ago
      Maybe I've just met an abnormal amount of lucky people, but in my role as one of the more mechanically inclined among my friends and family, I've seen three people completely locked out of their cars when under-door or other concealed keyholes have needed to be used. I'm not sure if it's been from rust, lack of use + time, or ice, but unused or backup keyholes on vehicles seem to fail far more often than those used for normal entry.
      - rootusrootus 8y ago
        That is a good point. I've never had to test the theory that my backup key would work in a pinch. Come to think of it, I don't actually recall anybody in my circle of friends and family having any issues either. Cars sure have become reliable in the past 30 years. I also live somewhere relatively mild where we don't put salt (for the most part) on the roads in the winter so corrosion is less common.
    - Piskvorrr 8y ago
      Counterpoint: much that is touted as waterproof tends to have smallprint saying "applicable in dry water only" (yup, had major warranty hassles on supposedly IP68-certified equipment, how could you tell?), and had to replace car fob batteries (unrelated incident; also needed to resync the token generator in the fobs, who knew there even was one?). "I'm lucky" is not quite the same as "that's a nonexistent problem".
  - abecedarius 8y ago
    OTOH keys can be cloned from a photo nowadays, so I gather.
    - brewdad 8y ago
      My local Lowes store offers key duplication via digital image as a service. You do need to insert the physical key but the machine creates a digital image for cutting the duplicate. https://www.minutekey.com/ https://www.minutekey.com/
  - decebalus1 8y ago
    My fancy wireless fob/key has a 'hardware' fallback which I absolutely adore. If you click a very well hidden button, the fob separates exposing a plain old metal old-timey key ready to be used.
  - drewmol 8y ago
    Most vehicles have hidden physical keyslots somewhere, often under the plastic cover of the door handle, but usually not all door handles. Source: worked for a valet company
tyingq 8y ago
An timeout that goes into idle mode until it detects some movement, would be less hassle. It still leaves a small window of opportunity for abuse, but seems like a decent middle ground.
- caf 8y ago
  Yes, a MEMS accelerometer would be a very cheap mitigation.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - bacon_waffle 8y ago
    Assuming you could do that without killing the battery, then it wouldn't provide a benefit for people like me who keep their keys in their pocket. My personal solution is to not drive often, and when I do it's a 1996 Subaru. ;)
    - caf 8y ago
      I think it would pretty easily differentiate between "keys in your pocket" and "keys sitting on bedside table for several hours".
      - tyingq 8y ago
        Apparently so: https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/transportation/sensors/how-accelerometers-will-soon-thwart-car-thieves https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/transportatio... But, he may be saying he's vulnerable for long periods because the idle timer won't kick in for him.
        bacon_waffle 8y ago
        Exactly - if I'm in bed for an optimistic 8 hours, then we're talking about a security feature that works for a third of the day. As for that time being at night when people are more likely to steal: https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000001423494/bike-thief.html https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000001423494/bike-t... I'd much rather have a solution that precludes relaying; maybe something that involves a precise turnaround time in the radio signal between the car and key, and so the key physically can't work beyond some relatively short range.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> A simple on/off button on the fob would work, and probably extend the battery life by a few years. As well as taking away much of the convenience advantage that passive fobs have over active-only fobs (most fobs already can be actively used, as well as passively.)

A simple on/off button on the fob would work, and probably extend the battery life by a few years.

by cronix 8y ago

A simple on/off button on the fob would work, and probably extend the battery life by a few years.

Ah, yes, let's put the burden back on the user after we promised them something easier. We should just go back to traditional keys if this is the case.

burfog 8y ago
Please yes. Traditional keys fit on my keyring, can survive the clothes washer, don't unlock doors by accident, can open a car with a dead battery, don't have their own battery issues, and can be brought into restricted work environments where radio transmitters are banned. I want key holes in all doors. I want to insert a key to start the car.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  About half of those problems don't really exist, in my opinion. I've washed the keyfob (it is waterproof), it has a built in key if the car battery is ever dead, I've never actually had to replace a fob battery. Personally I don't carry any keys so having a small round-ish object in my pocket that doesn't stab me in the leg when I sit down is a preferable situation.
  - calabin 8y ago
    Maybe I've just met an abnormal amount of lucky people, but in my role as one of the more mechanically inclined among my friends and family, I've seen three people completely locked out of their cars when under-door or other concealed keyholes have needed to be used. I'm not sure if it's been from rust, lack of use + time, or ice, but unused or backup keyholes on vehicles seem to fail far more often than those used for normal entry.
    - rootusrootus 8y ago
      That is a good point. I've never had to test the theory that my backup key would work in a pinch. Come to think of it, I don't actually recall anybody in my circle of friends and family having any issues either. Cars sure have become reliable in the past 30 years. I also live somewhere relatively mild where we don't put salt (for the most part) on the roads in the winter so corrosion is less common.
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    Counterpoint: much that is touted as waterproof tends to have smallprint saying "applicable in dry water only" (yup, had major warranty hassles on supposedly IP68-certified equipment, how could you tell?), and had to replace car fob batteries (unrelated incident; also needed to resync the token generator in the fobs, who knew there even was one?). "I'm lucky" is not quite the same as "that's a nonexistent problem".
- abecedarius 8y ago
  OTOH keys can be cloned from a photo nowadays, so I gather.
  - brewdad 8y ago
    My local Lowes store offers key duplication via digital image as a service. You do need to insert the physical key but the machine creates a digital image for cutting the duplicate. https://www.minutekey.com/ https://www.minutekey.com/
- decebalus1 8y ago
  My fancy wireless fob/key has a 'hardware' fallback which I absolutely adore. If you click a very well hidden button, the fob separates exposing a plain old metal old-timey key ready to be used.
- drewmol 8y ago
  Most vehicles have hidden physical keyslots somewhere, often under the plastic cover of the door handle, but usually not all door handles. Source: worked for a valet company

tyingq 8y ago

An timeout that goes into idle mode until it detects some movement, would be less hassle. It still leaves a small window of opportunity for abuse, but seems like a decent middle ground.

caf 8y ago
Yes, a MEMS accelerometer would be a very cheap mitigation.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- bacon_waffle 8y ago
  Assuming you could do that without killing the battery, then it wouldn't provide a benefit for people like me who keep their keys in their pocket. My personal solution is to not drive often, and when I do it's a 1996 Subaru. ;)
  - caf 8y ago
    I think it would pretty easily differentiate between "keys in your pocket" and "keys sitting on bedside table for several hours".
    - tyingq 8y ago
      Apparently so: https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/transportation/sensors/how-accelerometers-will-soon-thwart-car-thieves https://spectrum.ieee.org/view-from-the-valley/transportatio... But, he may be saying he's vulnerable for long periods because the idle timer won't kick in for him.
      - bacon_waffle 8y ago
        Exactly - if I'm in bed for an optimistic 8 hours, then we're talking about a security feature that works for a third of the day. As for that time being at night when people are more likely to steal: https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000001423494/bike-thief.html https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000001423494/bike-t... I'd much rather have a solution that precludes relaying; maybe something that involves a precise turnaround time in the radio signal between the car and key, and so the key physically can't work beyond some relatively short range.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> A simple on/off button on the fob would work, and probably extend the battery life by a few years. As well as taking away much of the convenience advantage that passive fobs have over active-only fobs (most fobs already can be actively used, as well as passively.)