6 ms·

Capital One Made Me Different Loan Offers Depending On Which Browser I Used

85 points by bensummers 16y ago

underdown 16y ago
split testing different offers?
- pavel_lishin 16y ago
  Right, she needs to go back and check the pages again with fresh installs a few times. It may be more or less random.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
gkoberger 16y ago
It's either: - A random number each time - Normal split testing using a cookie - Split testing using the user agent rather than a cookie The last one would, I suppose, be more consistent than using a cookie- after all, most people wouldn't switch browsers, but they might clear their cookies. That being said, a few companies have gotten in hot water for doing this. Amazon in 2000: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-245631.html http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-245631.html Automattic: http://brianbreslin.com/automattic-caught-ab-testing-pricing-for-vaultpress/ http://brianbreslin.com/automattic-caught-ab-testing-pricing... (although they admitted up front they were doing this) [Edited for readability]
- jwecker 16y ago
  I can almost guarantee it's simply a split test using a cookie, as that's the standard way to experiment (using Google Website Optimizer and others). It's a common bracketing experiment. Edit: To be clear, if it's flash cookies it could persist after browser installs but still be different per browser.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- unfasten 16y ago
  I think it's normal split testing using a normal cookie. Here are the rates I get in Opera (with flash disabled) while clearing cookies between reloads: new used refinance 3.10 4.49 4.34 3.50 5.09 4.84 2.70 4.09 3.94 2.30 3.59 3.54 And here's Firefox (with flash enabled) and clearing session cookies between reloads: new used refinance 2.70 4.09 3.94 3.10 4.49 4.34 2.30 3.59 3.54 3.50 5.09 4.84
  - joeyo 16y ago
    ANOVA agrees with you: Source Sum Sq. d.f. Mean Sq. F Prob>F ------------------------------------------------------- Loan Type 9.6665 2 4.8333 16.47 0.001 Browser 0 1 0 0 1 Error 5.8700 20 0.2935 Total 15.5365 23
tlb 16y ago
You also get different loans if you walk into a bank wearing a suit vs. a hoodie.
- andre3k1 16y ago
  So which browser is the equivalent of a tuxedo? A suit? A hoodie? I'm not so sure browser choice is an accurate signal of a person's worth (In this sense, worth could mean anything).
  - benvanderbeek 16y ago
    Safari is a hoodie
    - rbxbx 16y ago
      If anything Safari is the only browser that _could_ be _at all_ indicative of one's financial bracket...
      - cryptoz 16y ago
        s/_/ * [replace _ with * ]
        boredguy8 16y ago
        What is the world coming to, that you have to explain vi commands on HN?
        ismarc 16y ago
        That's technically just a regular expression (perl syntax). The vi equivalent would be :%s/_/*/g Which is, replace all occurrences on all lines of '_' with ' *' EDIT: Talk about formatting fail...
        16y ago
andre3k1 16y ago
Just out of curiosity, is there any proof out there that airline companies discriminate based on browser choice? My thoughts are that since airline companies are the quintessential example of price discrimination they would most likely have such a system in place.
- martincmartin 16y ago
  I worked at ITA software for a few years, in the team that wrote the software that searches for airfares. The prices of seats and their restrictions are published, and the data format predates the web (by a large margin). There's no field for "browser type." Each seat has about a dozen prices, and the only other way the user sees a price change is by turning a given price on or off. But the protocol that asks whether a given seat is available doesn't have a "browser type" field either. When you go to an airline's web site, they could presumably use whatever info they want. But if they used the browser while travel agents didn't, they'd either be presenting a lower price than you could get through the agent, or a higher one. It seems unlikely they'd do that, but I suppose it's possible.
  - brianbreslin 16y ago
    so more importantly: how do WE get better prices?
    - martincmartin 16y ago
      http://matrix.itasoftware.com http://matrix.itasoftware.com That and the flyer talk forums.
      - cwp 16y ago
        This! It's especially good when you have flexible dates, or you want to taylor your search (eg, connect through Dallas rather than Chicago). I've also used other multi-airline search sites (kayak, hipmunk, orbitz etc), but they never have the best price available. It's best to narrow it down to a few of the best options, then go price them directly on the airline's website. It usually works out significantly cheaper.
ilamont 16y ago
Capital One is famous for experimentation and segmentation based on messaging, response rate, demographic factors, and many other variables. It's how they came out of nowhere in the early 1990s (the founders were consultants who had zero banking or credit card experience) to disrupt the industry, most of which operated on one-size-fits all APRs and risk profiles.
- twitter_v2 16y ago
  Good point ilamont, I wonder if they have a'users vs risk' load balancer built into the search for the rate. For instance if 100k people tried for the same rate at the same time, would it randomly change the rate to balance the risk?
whereareyou 16y ago
About a year ago I got a quote from Geico.com for car insurance. When I got to the purchase screen, I decided to leave and check prices from other companies. Then I went back to Geico the second time because it turned out they had the best price. To my surprise Geico offered a 15% lower rate the second time! I guess they figured they better wow me to get a conversion the second time around. Pretty great.
- bigiain 16y ago
  I wonder if they're doing browser history sniffing? If I were an evil-finance-company-web-developer, I'd certainly consider attempting to find out which of my competitors websites you've visited recently. Or whether you'd visited any of their (or my) adwords landing pages. Or (with a fair bit more work) whether you'd done any of a selection of specific google searches. I've been playing with it a bit lately, it works pretty reliably in most of the Firefox 3.6.* browsers, as well as iPhones running 3.1.3 and 4.1, and IE 7 and 8... (Chrome, Safari, and iPads are immune to both the css and javascript sniffing techniques I've tried, but that's not to say there aren't other tricks that work for them...) http://bigiain.com/csshistorysniffing.html http://bigiain.com/csshistorysniffing.html (apologies in advance if my cheapo hosting and naive and unoptimised perl/cgi proof of concept doesn't stand up to hackernews traffic volumes...)
notaddicted 16y ago
What is the right way to gather this info? Our expectation is that the prices advertised are firm. Is there a way to perform the test without violating expectations? Using something like an geographic IP lookup would mitigate but not solve.
cshenoy 16y ago
chrome ftw?
twitter_v2 16y ago
I would expect this has something to do with the browser and where it indexes the results (pull this rate from) from to start with. As Firefox can deliver results from many search engines, I would love to know if Devin knew what Firefox was searching with at the time, Yahoo/ Bing or Google. If set to Google this could be a fantastic bench test to see what results are actually delivered from both browsers connected to Google.
JonSadowski 16y ago
caponeaf_split=exp1%3DD_exp2%3DD_exp3%3DD_exp4%3DD_exp5%3DD_exp6%3DD_exp7%3DD Split test cookie
aresant 16y ago
Method behind the madness? -= ComScore study suggests that FireFox users, while more affluent, also tend to skew considerably younger than your average Internet Explorer user -= Pair that data with the fact that younger people have lower credit scores, and the lower your credit score, the higher your APR. -= By showing a prospect a loan rate near to what they will qualify for, Capital One is going to close more business, and not waste resources on non-qualified leads. VIA - http://conversionvoodoo.com/blog/2010/11/do-different-web-browsers-bring-different-demographics/ http://conversionvoodoo.com/blog/2010/11/do-different-web-br...
fragmede 16y ago
Same goes for Netflix's streaming only rate - it's either $7.99/month or $8.99/month depending on your browser.
BillMartin 16y ago
I built something a while back which used several data sources to build a scoring profile of the applicant. The emergent behaviours were rather interesting, anyone with a .pl tld in their email was several penalised. The rejection rates for .pl applicants was 100% so the system worked albeit somewhat racistly.

85 points by bensummers 16y ago

underdown 16y ago

split testing different offers?

pavel_lishin 16y ago
Right, she needs to go back and check the pages again with fresh installs a few times. It may be more or less random.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

gkoberger 16y ago

It's either: - A random number each time - Normal split testing using a cookie - Split testing using the user agent rather than a cookie The last one would, I suppose, be more consistent than using a cookie- after all, most people wouldn't switch browsers, but they might clear their cookies. That being said, a few companies have gotten in hot water for doing this. Amazon in 2000: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-245631.html http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-245631.html Automattic: http://brianbreslin.com/automattic-caught-ab-testing-pricing-for-vaultpress/ http://brianbreslin.com/automattic-caught-ab-testing-pricing... (although they admitted up front they were doing this) [Edited for readability]

jwecker 16y ago
I can almost guarantee it's simply a split test using a cookie, as that's the standard way to experiment (using Google Website Optimizer and others). It's a common bracketing experiment. Edit: To be clear, if it's flash cookies it could persist after browser installs but still be different per browser.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
unfasten 16y ago
I think it's normal split testing using a normal cookie. Here are the rates I get in Opera (with flash disabled) while clearing cookies between reloads: new used refinance 3.10 4.49 4.34 3.50 5.09 4.84 2.70 4.09 3.94 2.30 3.59 3.54 And here's Firefox (with flash enabled) and clearing session cookies between reloads: new used refinance 2.70 4.09 3.94 3.10 4.49 4.34 2.30 3.59 3.54 3.50 5.09 4.84
- joeyo 16y ago
  ANOVA agrees with you: Source Sum Sq. d.f. Mean Sq. F Prob>F ------------------------------------------------------- Loan Type 9.6665 2 4.8333 16.47 0.001 Browser 0 1 0 0 1 Error 5.8700 20 0.2935 Total 15.5365 23

tlb 16y ago

You also get different loans if you walk into a bank wearing a suit vs. a hoodie.

andre3k1 16y ago
So which browser is the equivalent of a tuxedo? A suit? A hoodie? I'm not so sure browser choice is an accurate signal of a person's worth (In this sense, worth could mean anything).
- benvanderbeek 16y ago
  Safari is a hoodie
  - rbxbx 16y ago
    If anything Safari is the only browser that _could_ be _at all_ indicative of one's financial bracket...
    - cryptoz 16y ago
      s/_/ * [replace _ with * ]
      - boredguy8 16y ago
        What is the world coming to, that you have to explain vi commands on HN?
        ismarc 16y ago
        That's technically just a regular expression (perl syntax). The vi equivalent would be :%s/_/*/g Which is, replace all occurrences on all lines of '_' with ' *' EDIT: Talk about formatting fail...
        16y ago

andre3k1 16y ago

Just out of curiosity, is there any proof out there that airline companies discriminate based on browser choice? My thoughts are that since airline companies are the quintessential example of price discrimination they would most likely have such a system in place.

martincmartin 16y ago
I worked at ITA software for a few years, in the team that wrote the software that searches for airfares. The prices of seats and their restrictions are published, and the data format predates the web (by a large margin). There's no field for "browser type." Each seat has about a dozen prices, and the only other way the user sees a price change is by turning a given price on or off. But the protocol that asks whether a given seat is available doesn't have a "browser type" field either. When you go to an airline's web site, they could presumably use whatever info they want. But if they used the browser while travel agents didn't, they'd either be presenting a lower price than you could get through the agent, or a higher one. It seems unlikely they'd do that, but I suppose it's possible.
- brianbreslin 16y ago
  so more importantly: how do WE get better prices?
  - martincmartin 16y ago
    http://matrix.itasoftware.com http://matrix.itasoftware.com That and the flyer talk forums.
    - cwp 16y ago
      This! It's especially good when you have flexible dates, or you want to taylor your search (eg, connect through Dallas rather than Chicago). I've also used other multi-airline search sites (kayak, hipmunk, orbitz etc), but they never have the best price available. It's best to narrow it down to a few of the best options, then go price them directly on the airline's website. It usually works out significantly cheaper.

ilamont 16y ago

Capital One is famous for experimentation and segmentation based on messaging, response rate, demographic factors, and many other variables. It's how they came out of nowhere in the early 1990s (the founders were consultants who had zero banking or credit card experience) to disrupt the industry, most of which operated on one-size-fits all APRs and risk profiles.

twitter_v2 16y ago
Good point ilamont, I wonder if they have a'users vs risk' load balancer built into the search for the rate. For instance if 100k people tried for the same rate at the same time, would it randomly change the rate to balance the risk?

whereareyou 16y ago

About a year ago I got a quote from Geico.com for car insurance. When I got to the purchase screen, I decided to leave and check prices from other companies. Then I went back to Geico the second time because it turned out they had the best price. To my surprise Geico offered a 15% lower rate the second time! I guess they figured they better wow me to get a conversion the second time around. Pretty great.

bigiain 16y ago
I wonder if they're doing browser history sniffing? If I were an evil-finance-company-web-developer, I'd certainly consider attempting to find out which of my competitors websites you've visited recently. Or whether you'd visited any of their (or my) adwords landing pages. Or (with a fair bit more work) whether you'd done any of a selection of specific google searches. I've been playing with it a bit lately, it works pretty reliably in most of the Firefox 3.6.* browsers, as well as iPhones running 3.1.3 and 4.1, and IE 7 and 8... (Chrome, Safari, and iPads are immune to both the css and javascript sniffing techniques I've tried, but that's not to say there aren't other tricks that work for them...) http://bigiain.com/csshistorysniffing.html http://bigiain.com/csshistorysniffing.html (apologies in advance if my cheapo hosting and naive and unoptimised perl/cgi proof of concept doesn't stand up to hackernews traffic volumes...)

notaddicted 16y ago

What is the right way to gather this info? Our expectation is that the prices advertised are firm. Is there a way to perform the test without violating expectations? Using something like an geographic IP lookup would mitigate but not solve.

cshenoy 16y ago

chrome ftw?

twitter_v2 16y ago

I would expect this has something to do with the browser and where it indexes the results (pull this rate from) from to start with. As Firefox can deliver results from many search engines, I would love to know if Devin knew what Firefox was searching with at the time, Yahoo/ Bing or Google. If set to Google this could be a fantastic bench test to see what results are actually delivered from both browsers connected to Google.

JonSadowski 16y ago

caponeaf_split=exp1%3DD_exp2%3DD_exp3%3DD_exp4%3DD_exp5%3DD_exp6%3DD_exp7%3DD Split test cookie

aresant 16y ago

Method behind the madness? -= ComScore study suggests that FireFox users, while more affluent, also tend to skew considerably younger than your average Internet Explorer user -= Pair that data with the fact that younger people have lower credit scores, and the lower your credit score, the higher your APR. -= By showing a prospect a loan rate near to what they will qualify for, Capital One is going to close more business, and not waste resources on non-qualified leads. VIA - http://conversionvoodoo.com/blog/2010/11/do-different-web-browsers-bring-different-demographics/ http://conversionvoodoo.com/blog/2010/11/do-different-web-br...

fragmede 16y ago

Same goes for Netflix's streaming only rate - it's either $7.99/month or $8.99/month depending on your browser.

BillMartin 16y ago

I built something a while back which used several data sources to build a scoring profile of the applicant. The emergent behaviours were rather interesting, anyone with a .pl tld in their email was several penalised. The rejection rates for .pl applicants was 100% so the system worked albeit somewhat racistly.