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Chinese history isn't longer than western history. But, I would say that Chinese commentators do have a greater sense of their own history than Western commenta

Chinese history isn't longer than western history. But, I would say that Chinese commentators do have a greater sense of their own history than Western commentators. I have two examples to illustrate my point. 1) Confucius, if he existed at all, could have been a contemporary with Herodotus. How many modern statues of Herodotus can you think of? My guess is not many, but statues of Confucius in China abound. The Chinese government draws a certain amount of legitimacy in tying itself to Chinese history. How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? 2) Also consider that every Chinese people is at least familiar with a few lines in ancient Chinese books like Art of War, Analects, Dao De Jing and Han/Tang/Song poetry in the written language. Can you think of a comparable piece of Latin or Greek writing that the average Westerner knows by heart? How many people can recite Virgil and Homer? Bonus if they can do it in the original Latin or Greek.

_petronius 8y ago
> How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? The West has used the aesthetics of the Roman empire as a basis for the trappings of power right through the modern period (see: Napoleon; US civic architecture). The direct reliance on legitimacy as deriving from a historical connection to Rome was basically only broken by the rise of the nation-state idea in the 19th century. We still hold up the example of (a rather simplified view of) Athenian democracy as an example of the ancient legitimacy of democratic and republican institutions in some schools' civics classes. Maybe it isn't as specific and concrete as the Chinese use of history for legitimacy, but I think the influence is there. More fun info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome
chongli 8y ago
How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? This is a taboo subject among Western politicians nowadays. The answer is that Mussolini's fascist Italy and Hitler's Nazi Germany did this all the time. Also consider that every Chinese people is at least familiar with a few lines in ancient Chinese books like Art of War, Analects, Dao De Jing and Han/Tang/Song poetry in the written language. I very much doubt that the average Chinese city-dweller, nevermind subsistence farmer, can recite those ancient works by heart. Furthermore, I doubt any Chinese person, apart from a scholar, could actually write down a few lines from these works in the original seal script. I would even go so far as to say that the average Chinese person would struggle to write anything but the most common characters in modern Chinese without the use of a phone or computer. If you're looking for a Western text comparable to the Dao De Jing that many Westerners know then look no further than the Bible. There are millions of people who can rattle off Bible quotes by heart.
- myself248 8y ago
  > > How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? > > This is a taboo subject among Western politicians nowadays. The answer is that Mussolini's fascist Italy and Hitler's Nazi Germany did this all the time. > There are millions of people who can rattle off Bible quotes by heart. And how many Western governments claim to derive their legitimacy from biblical prophecy? (Whichever version thereof.) Israel comes to mind. Talk about the elephant in the room!
- lawlessone 8y ago
  >Furthermore, I doubt any Chinese person, apart from a scholar, could actually write down a few lines from these works They might not know it but its still ingrained, influences their culture and laws.
  - chongli 8y ago
    They might not know it but its still ingrained, influences their culture and laws. That's far less strong of a claim. If we're only talking about cultural influences then it's not hard to show how much of an influence the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Homeric Epics, and Plato's dialogues have had on Western cultures. It would be harder to point to a cultural element which had not been influenced by one or more of these ancient works.
- beaglers 8y ago
  That's why I wrote Chinese have greater sense of their own history. Many Westerners can rattle off Bible quotes but not text from ancient Rome and Greece. I can tell you with certainty that most Chinese do know at least a few quotes from ancient Chinese books.
jcranmer 8y ago
> How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? Overtly, very few if any. But look at the education curricula of the US--you get a large dose of Roman and Greek history. Discussion of the structure of US government literally drew parallels to the structure of the Roman Republic and Athenian democracy. Our government structures are designed in edifice to be replicas of the ruins of Rome of Athens. Even our math curriculum is derived from Greek mathematicians. Where the difference exists is that Western countries do not claim to be an unbroken continuation from ancient Rome and Greece as China does. > Can you think of a comparable piece of Latin or Greek writing that the average Westerner knows by heart? The New Testament of the Christian Bible, which was written around the height of the Roman Empire after all, certainly before the Tang and Song dynasties you mention. Most people have probably read the Odyssey or the Iliad at some point (and definitely can relate the basic plots of these books). Writings of Plato are also pretty likely to be well-known to most people, but most especially philosophers. And I hear that doctors have to recite a famous passage from Hippocrates as part of their studies...

_petronius 8y ago

> How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? The West has used the aesthetics of the Roman empire as a basis for the trappings of power right through the modern period (see: Napoleon; US civic architecture). The direct reliance on legitimacy as deriving from a historical connection to Rome was basically only broken by the rise of the nation-state idea in the 19th century. We still hold up the example of (a rather simplified view of) Athenian democracy as an example of the ancient legitimacy of democratic and republican institutions in some schools' civics classes. Maybe it isn't as specific and concrete as the Chinese use of history for legitimacy, but I think the influence is there. More fun info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Rome

chongli 8y ago

How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? This is a taboo subject among Western politicians nowadays. The answer is that Mussolini's fascist Italy and Hitler's Nazi Germany did this all the time. Also consider that every Chinese people is at least familiar with a few lines in ancient Chinese books like Art of War, Analects, Dao De Jing and Han/Tang/Song poetry in the written language. I very much doubt that the average Chinese city-dweller, nevermind subsistence farmer, can recite those ancient works by heart. Furthermore, I doubt any Chinese person, apart from a scholar, could actually write down a few lines from these works in the original seal script. I would even go so far as to say that the average Chinese person would struggle to write anything but the most common characters in modern Chinese without the use of a phone or computer. If you're looking for a Western text comparable to the Dao De Jing that many Westerners know then look no further than the Bible. There are millions of people who can rattle off Bible quotes by heart.

myself248 8y ago
> > How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? > > This is a taboo subject among Western politicians nowadays. The answer is that Mussolini's fascist Italy and Hitler's Nazi Germany did this all the time. > There are millions of people who can rattle off Bible quotes by heart. And how many Western governments claim to derive their legitimacy from biblical prophecy? (Whichever version thereof.) Israel comes to mind. Talk about the elephant in the room!
lawlessone 8y ago
>Furthermore, I doubt any Chinese person, apart from a scholar, could actually write down a few lines from these works They might not know it but its still ingrained, influences their culture and laws.
- chongli 8y ago
  They might not know it but its still ingrained, influences their culture and laws. That's far less strong of a claim. If we're only talking about cultural influences then it's not hard to show how much of an influence the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Homeric Epics, and Plato's dialogues have had on Western cultures. It would be harder to point to a cultural element which had not been influenced by one or more of these ancient works.
beaglers 8y ago
That's why I wrote Chinese have greater sense of their own history. Many Westerners can rattle off Bible quotes but not text from ancient Rome and Greece. I can tell you with certainty that most Chinese do know at least a few quotes from ancient Chinese books.

jcranmer 8y ago

> How many Western governments are trying to draw legitimacy from ancient Rome or Greece? Overtly, very few if any. But look at the education curricula of the US--you get a large dose of Roman and Greek history. Discussion of the structure of US government literally drew parallels to the structure of the Roman Republic and Athenian democracy. Our government structures are designed in edifice to be replicas of the ruins of Rome of Athens. Even our math curriculum is derived from Greek mathematicians. Where the difference exists is that Western countries do not claim to be an unbroken continuation from ancient Rome and Greece as China does. > Can you think of a comparable piece of Latin or Greek writing that the average Westerner knows by heart? The New Testament of the Christian Bible, which was written around the height of the Roman Empire after all, certainly before the Tang and Song dynasties you mention. Most people have probably read the Odyssey or the Iliad at some point (and definitely can relate the basic plots of these books). Writings of Plato are also pretty likely to be well-known to most people, but most especially philosophers. And I hear that doctors have to recite a famous passage from Hippocrates as part of their studies...