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I understand that your comments are partly in jest Nope, 100% serious. It's wrong because voting is an inherent citizenship right; it cannot be made... I ag

I understand that your comments are partly in jest Nope, 100% serious. It's wrong because voting is an inherent citizenship right; it cannot be made... I agree completely. In no way do I advocate any sort of qualification. That's a slippery slope the first step of which is incredibly steep. What I'm advocating is that people self-select. I wish we could each reflect personally, and try to determine whether we really have the knowledge and understanding that's necessary to judge; and then honestly decide whether that the conclusion allows us to impose our thoughts on others. The government enforces its policies, ultimately, by force and violence. If you're going to threaten someone (by way of the government) with force, you'd better be damned confident that there's a good reason to do so.

Kisil 16y ago
Perhaps in an ideal world some people should self-select out of voting; I haven't thought enough about that ideal world to say. But HN in general, and this page in particular, is the wrong forum to push for such self-selection. I would be willing to bet that the average HN reader is better informed, and better qualified to understand that information, than the general population. HN readers, please vote today.
siculars 16y ago
You have some nerve. You really do. Has it occurred to you that the mere act of participation in and exercising your right to vote is an act of "...knowledge and understanding..." in it's own right? I find the totality of your comments in this thread incredibly offensive. To suggest that citizens abdicate their right to vote is incredulous. I am of the opinion that every citizen should be encouraged to vote by any and all legal means. If for no other reason then to educate people as to the mechanics of democracy let alone exercise a right that generations of people have died to ensure.
- CWuestefeld 16y ago
  I'm sorry that you're offended. However, stating that you are offended, and then re-asserting your belief in voting really doesn't do anything to show my where the error is in my argument. I'd have an easier time understanding where I've gone astray if you could address my two questions: 1. Is it immoral to vote by dice? 2. In what ways does an ignorant voter, reacting emotionally to propaganda, differ from voting by dice?
  - siculars 16y ago
    1. No, it is not immoral to vote by dice. 2. Imho, the act of voting in and of itself encompass a conscious decision to act. To act requires thought. Who are we to judge the beliefs or thought process that leads a citizen to vote? Even if the voter was "reacting emotionally to propaganda", so what? I find it interesting that you use three very loaded words within a span of four. Reacting. You paint this voter as reptilian. Incapable of thought and merely reacting to various primal instincts. Emotionally. You impugn this voters ability to remain uncompromised and imply a certain level of deficit. Propaganda. You concern yourself with the message the citizen receives and pass judgment as to whether or not it meets your standards of information. [edit] Allow me to elaborate on your first question. You either have the right to vote or you do not. If I chose to vote based on which side of the bed I woke up on then so be it. To say otherwise is to assert your opinion over my right. You, Sir, are emotionally compromised on this issue.
  - Jun8 16y ago
    Seriously, I thought you were being tongue in cheek in your comments. If you're serious, then your idea of rating people according to some measure (you advocate some hazy notion of informedness, but it's not important what it is) and denying people who score low is outrageous. In fact, in principle, this is no different than saying blacks, or women, or gays, etc. should not vote! Let me state it simply: Voting is a right given to a citizen who meets certain definitions (i.e. inmates cannot vote). It's not up to you, or me, or the government to dictate or judge what they will do with their vote. They can roll a dice, use Tarot cards, be influenced by O'Reilly, whatever. It's their right to use however they see fit. Ideas like yours do great damage because they provide fuel to idiotic movements like the Tea Party.
    - RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
      > Voting is a right given to a citizen who meets > certain definitions (i.e. inmates cannot vote). The European Union has declared that preventing inmates from voting is an infringment of their human rights. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11671164 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11671164
ekiru 16y ago
The problem with uninformed voters self-selecting to not vote is that the people who decide not to vote because they are not sufficiently informed tend to be in the middle range of informedness. There are many more people who are even less well-informed and have put less thought into their voting decisions who will vote.

Kisil 16y ago

Perhaps in an ideal world some people should self-select out of voting; I haven't thought enough about that ideal world to say. But HN in general, and this page in particular, is the wrong forum to push for such self-selection. I would be willing to bet that the average HN reader is better informed, and better qualified to understand that information, than the general population. HN readers, please vote today.

siculars 16y ago

You have some nerve. You really do. Has it occurred to you that the mere act of participation in and exercising your right to vote is an act of "...knowledge and understanding..." in it's own right? I find the totality of your comments in this thread incredibly offensive. To suggest that citizens abdicate their right to vote is incredulous. I am of the opinion that every citizen should be encouraged to vote by any and all legal means. If for no other reason then to educate people as to the mechanics of democracy let alone exercise a right that generations of people have died to ensure.

CWuestefeld 16y ago
I'm sorry that you're offended. However, stating that you are offended, and then re-asserting your belief in voting really doesn't do anything to show my where the error is in my argument. I'd have an easier time understanding where I've gone astray if you could address my two questions: 1. Is it immoral to vote by dice? 2. In what ways does an ignorant voter, reacting emotionally to propaganda, differ from voting by dice?
- siculars 16y ago
  1. No, it is not immoral to vote by dice. 2. Imho, the act of voting in and of itself encompass a conscious decision to act. To act requires thought. Who are we to judge the beliefs or thought process that leads a citizen to vote? Even if the voter was "reacting emotionally to propaganda", so what? I find it interesting that you use three very loaded words within a span of four. Reacting. You paint this voter as reptilian. Incapable of thought and merely reacting to various primal instincts. Emotionally. You impugn this voters ability to remain uncompromised and imply a certain level of deficit. Propaganda. You concern yourself with the message the citizen receives and pass judgment as to whether or not it meets your standards of information. [edit] Allow me to elaborate on your first question. You either have the right to vote or you do not. If I chose to vote based on which side of the bed I woke up on then so be it. To say otherwise is to assert your opinion over my right. You, Sir, are emotionally compromised on this issue.
- Jun8 16y ago
  Seriously, I thought you were being tongue in cheek in your comments. If you're serious, then your idea of rating people according to some measure (you advocate some hazy notion of informedness, but it's not important what it is) and denying people who score low is outrageous. In fact, in principle, this is no different than saying blacks, or women, or gays, etc. should not vote! Let me state it simply: Voting is a right given to a citizen who meets certain definitions (i.e. inmates cannot vote). It's not up to you, or me, or the government to dictate or judge what they will do with their vote. They can roll a dice, use Tarot cards, be influenced by O'Reilly, whatever. It's their right to use however they see fit. Ideas like yours do great damage because they provide fuel to idiotic movements like the Tea Party.
  - RiderOfGiraffes 16y ago
    > Voting is a right given to a citizen who meets > certain definitions (i.e. inmates cannot vote). The European Union has declared that preventing inmates from voting is an infringment of their human rights. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11671164 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11671164

ekiru 16y ago

The problem with uninformed voters self-selecting to not vote is that the people who decide not to vote because they are not sufficiently informed tend to be in the middle range of informedness. There are many more people who are even less well-informed and have put less thought into their voting decisions who will vote.