4 ms·

I'm 100% as interested in Market Access as I am with IP theft. I'm sure there are small and large companies with IP concerns but overwhelmingly, this is a larg

I'm 100% as interested in Market Access as I am with IP theft. I'm sure there are small and large companies with IP concerns but overwhelmingly, this is a large companies game since they are the ones doing really heavy R&D lifting on new materials and technologies. For startups, genuine market access to China would be such a fantastic opportunity.

westiseast 8y ago
As a real world example, the fashion industry in China is hopelessly awash with fakes and copies. There’s very little enforcement of that kind of intellectual property, and also such high barriers to entry for say small/medium European fashion brands that they have no options. Chinese counterfeiters make money hand over fist ripping off US/EU designers, often working with the same factories producing the legitimate products for export. When a small/medium EU clothing company can setup their own Taobao store easily and cheaply, sell online without overwhelming competition from counterfeiters, repatriate their earnings without significant issues, then perhaps we can consider the playing field levelled somewhat.
- ryacko 8y ago
  Sounds like the Chinese are only selling defective products that westerners won’t accept.
  - westiseast 8y ago
    That’s not correct. Especially with low-tech products like clothing, you can easily buy fakes that have equivalent (or better) quality than originals at 1/5th of the US/EU price. You’re not paying expensive EU/US staff wages, company taxes, export costs, duties, design fees, branding and marketing costs. The base cost of a $120 pair of NIKE shoes is around $10 - it’s easy to find counterfeit Nike that cost $20 with great quality.
    - max76 8y ago
      > You're not paying [...] marketing costs. While the average counterfeit probably spends 1/1000th the marketing cost Nike does per dollar of revenue, without any marketing there could not be any sales.
    - paganel 8y ago
      > Especially with low-tech products like clothing, you can easily buy fakes that have equivalent (or better) quality than originals at 1/5th of the US/EU price. As a consumer I 100% approve of this practice, go Chinese clothes manufacturers! And I can use the $110 that I saved by purchasing a product/service from an industry that doesn't rely on rent-seeking (IP is mostly rent-seeking nowadays).
      - westiseast 8y ago
        I kind of agree. Western consumers are so removed from clothing production that they’ve lost sight of how vast the gulf is between real and perceived value. Paying 10x or 20x the manufacturing cost for what is essentially a commodity item with zero technology or innovation is insane. That said, brand and design do have some value. There’s a reason why Chinese consumers and counterfeiters have insane appetite for western brands, but western consumers would struggle to name a single Chinese clothing company.
    - ryacko 8y ago
      I have seen in Western outlet stores a greater likelihood of encountering clothes with threads hanging out or extremely minor misalignments. I assume it is the case in the East.
      - fjsolwmv 8y ago
        Outlet stores are specifically built as places to dump manufacturing errors. Chinese factories are also able to manufacture excess high quality inventory beyond what their foreign customers order.
  - cronix 8y ago
    Amazons sales seem to be doing ok.
- bilbo0s 8y ago
  Yeah but you can't even do that here in the US. (Maybe you can do it in Europe? But I'm skeptical.) I mean, the problem of counterfeits on Amazon is legendary here in the US. And not all of the counterfeits are coming from China. The way you work around that in the US is to get in good with the buyers for the big boys. Say, something like Target. QC at Target will be a lot better than QC at Amazon, and Target will move diligently to quash any counterfeits they find anywhere. Now, of course, that's like winning the lottery. It's just not going to happen for most of us. At the same time though, that's how you get successful in fashion here in the US. On the one hand you make Target or Nordstrom or whoever much richer, on the other, you get rich too. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. China is the same as the US in this regard. If you're looking to access China to get rich, you're doing it wrong. You'll very likely fail. (Unless you're a six foot plus black guy with a wicked 3 point shot.) You access China to make someone in China rich. You'll experience a good deal more success doing things that way.
  - elefanten 8y ago
    This is a very false equivalence. Your fashion specific example doesn't support your broader claim that market access is comparably difficult in US and China. The facts says otherwise pretty starkly. And even in the context of GP's example, the small/medium Euro businesses are in high demand. That's why the counterfeits are selling to begin with. If you're an in-demand fashion brand, it's not as hard as you describe to get into big retail or open boutiques.
    - bilbo0s 8y ago
      I wasn't talking about the broader market, I was talking about the fashion market. The fashion market in the US and China are comparably difficult for a US based business to access. That's just reality. I didn't comment on Euro businesses, because I don't know how things work in Europe. But I doubt that you can get into Nordstrom, Target, or what have you as easily as you claim simply because you are European. Maybe you mean it's easy for Euro fashion houses to get into EURO retail outlets. But American outlets are just hard to access for everyone. That's just reality. Chinese market is hard to access too, again, just reality. (Again, it gets easier for an American if you are a six foot plus black guy with a wicked three point shot who's already famous in China. His success is more a function of popularity than access.)

westiseast 8y ago

As a real world example, the fashion industry in China is hopelessly awash with fakes and copies. There’s very little enforcement of that kind of intellectual property, and also such high barriers to entry for say small/medium European fashion brands that they have no options. Chinese counterfeiters make money hand over fist ripping off US/EU designers, often working with the same factories producing the legitimate products for export. When a small/medium EU clothing company can setup their own Taobao store easily and cheaply, sell online without overwhelming competition from counterfeiters, repatriate their earnings without significant issues, then perhaps we can consider the playing field levelled somewhat.

ryacko 8y ago
Sounds like the Chinese are only selling defective products that westerners won’t accept.
- westiseast 8y ago
  That’s not correct. Especially with low-tech products like clothing, you can easily buy fakes that have equivalent (or better) quality than originals at 1/5th of the US/EU price. You’re not paying expensive EU/US staff wages, company taxes, export costs, duties, design fees, branding and marketing costs. The base cost of a $120 pair of NIKE shoes is around $10 - it’s easy to find counterfeit Nike that cost $20 with great quality.
  - max76 8y ago
    > You're not paying [...] marketing costs. While the average counterfeit probably spends 1/1000th the marketing cost Nike does per dollar of revenue, without any marketing there could not be any sales.
  - paganel 8y ago
    > Especially with low-tech products like clothing, you can easily buy fakes that have equivalent (or better) quality than originals at 1/5th of the US/EU price. As a consumer I 100% approve of this practice, go Chinese clothes manufacturers! And I can use the $110 that I saved by purchasing a product/service from an industry that doesn't rely on rent-seeking (IP is mostly rent-seeking nowadays).
    - westiseast 8y ago
      I kind of agree. Western consumers are so removed from clothing production that they’ve lost sight of how vast the gulf is between real and perceived value. Paying 10x or 20x the manufacturing cost for what is essentially a commodity item with zero technology or innovation is insane. That said, brand and design do have some value. There’s a reason why Chinese consumers and counterfeiters have insane appetite for western brands, but western consumers would struggle to name a single Chinese clothing company.
  - ryacko 8y ago
    I have seen in Western outlet stores a greater likelihood of encountering clothes with threads hanging out or extremely minor misalignments. I assume it is the case in the East.
    - fjsolwmv 8y ago
      Outlet stores are specifically built as places to dump manufacturing errors. Chinese factories are also able to manufacture excess high quality inventory beyond what their foreign customers order.
- cronix 8y ago
  Amazons sales seem to be doing ok.
bilbo0s 8y ago
Yeah but you can't even do that here in the US. (Maybe you can do it in Europe? But I'm skeptical.) I mean, the problem of counterfeits on Amazon is legendary here in the US. And not all of the counterfeits are coming from China. The way you work around that in the US is to get in good with the buyers for the big boys. Say, something like Target. QC at Target will be a lot better than QC at Amazon, and Target will move diligently to quash any counterfeits they find anywhere. Now, of course, that's like winning the lottery. It's just not going to happen for most of us. At the same time though, that's how you get successful in fashion here in the US. On the one hand you make Target or Nordstrom or whoever much richer, on the other, you get rich too. I've said this before, and I'll say it again. China is the same as the US in this regard. If you're looking to access China to get rich, you're doing it wrong. You'll very likely fail. (Unless you're a six foot plus black guy with a wicked 3 point shot.) You access China to make someone in China rich. You'll experience a good deal more success doing things that way.
- elefanten 8y ago
  This is a very false equivalence. Your fashion specific example doesn't support your broader claim that market access is comparably difficult in US and China. The facts says otherwise pretty starkly. And even in the context of GP's example, the small/medium Euro businesses are in high demand. That's why the counterfeits are selling to begin with. If you're an in-demand fashion brand, it's not as hard as you describe to get into big retail or open boutiques.
  - bilbo0s 8y ago
    I wasn't talking about the broader market, I was talking about the fashion market. The fashion market in the US and China are comparably difficult for a US based business to access. That's just reality. I didn't comment on Euro businesses, because I don't know how things work in Europe. But I doubt that you can get into Nordstrom, Target, or what have you as easily as you claim simply because you are European. Maybe you mean it's easy for Euro fashion houses to get into EURO retail outlets. But American outlets are just hard to access for everyone. That's just reality. Chinese market is hard to access too, again, just reality. (Again, it gets easier for an American if you are a six foot plus black guy with a wicked three point shot who's already famous in China. His success is more a function of popularity than access.)