7 ms·

Analysis of 50+ requests for my "Offer HN" conversion rate optimization help

177 points by paraschopra 16y ago

paraschopra 16y ago
Here is the original "Offer HN" thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842768 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842768
jeffmiller 16y ago
Cut text; reduce choices; only offer one CTA button. It's fascinating how an Occam's Razor-type force pervades successful web design.
- patio11 16y ago
  As always, test. I'm broadly supportive of this advice, but I know people who do long-form copy and see conversion rates slip when they switch to short form, and (while it isn't long-form) the BCC home page historically performs better with lots of text than with little.
  - paraschopra 16y ago
    Yes, one example of those kinds of pages are the never ending sales pitch pages (e.g. selling parrot training). So, text _per se_ is not a bad thing on a page. But you have to provide proper flow and layout to generate interest and then seduce visitor to that prominent 'Add to Cart' button.
    - percept 16y ago
      That was my initial impression too (what about SEO?). It's about balancing the text with the layout and clear calls to action.
- LiveTheDream 16y ago
  When people have only one thing to process mentally and click on, guess what? They click it. In an extreme example[1], when a service failure resulted in a mobile app displaying only ads (no content) -- revenue soared. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1753134 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1753134
vaksel 16y ago
is the "too much text" really a problem? if too much text didn't work, none of those "buy my crappy ebook and make billions like me" sales pages would work. regarding the designer, if you are just starting out and can't afford one...borrow concepts from your competitors. If you are selling shoes, borrow the design from zappos. Why? Because you know that they've optimized every single thing, since even .5% can cost them millions. I'm pretty sure that quote is from pg. And if you want to be a real jackass, you can add an exit pop to your site. The call to action thing is very important. Most users are very uncertain, if you give them too many options, they'll get confused and won't do anything. As far as social proof, yes I agree, but it's not that hard to fake the social proof. Nothing is stopping you from adding a Techcrunch image to your site. And if techcrunch bitches...just point them to that completely unrelated comment you made with a link to your site. overall good post, since I find that pretty much every website will have one of those missing.
- paraschopra 16y ago
  Yes "too much text" may be a problem is if it unstructured. Also, if you don't have a designer you can buy one nice-looking template from http://themeforest.net http://themeforest.net I would personally never "fake" social proof as (apart from ethical concerns) it may have legal liabilities which a startup cannot afford. EDIT: Typo in link
  - vaksel 16y ago
    I'm not sure about the legal liabilities. if you add "as seen on Techcrunch", and that's in reference to a comment you made...that's not exactly a complete lie. yes it's completely unethical, but I don't think it'd be illegal
  - jonp 16y ago
    I think that link should be http://themeforest.net/ http://themeforest.net/ ?
- roel_v 16y ago
  "if too much text didn't work, none of those "buy my crappy ebook and make billions like me" sales pages would work." You're referring to 'long copy' which is wholly different from 'throw a couple of paragraphs of text on my website because I'm too lazy to make it short or replace with graphics'. Writing long copy is a craft, and is structured completely different from the websites in the review.
michael_dorfman 16y ago
Regarding the "your greatest enemy is the back button" quote-- the earliest citations on HN are http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272 and http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272, attributing it to "one of the founders of BackType". Personally, I think Patio11 put a nice twist on it here, though: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1686784 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1686784
- paraschopra 16y ago
  I personally thought PG made it but couldn't find a citation.
  - michael_dorfman 16y ago
    It could be, but I couldn't find it either. Or, I should say, Google couldn't find it.
  - benohear 16y ago
    IIRC he mentioned that in his Mixergy interview.
- steveklabnik 16y ago
  "Obscurity is a far greater threat to authors and creative artists than piracy." - Tim O'Reilly, 2006. http://radar.oreilly.com/2006/08/piracy-is-progressive-taxation.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2006/08/piracy-is-progressive-taxat...
- zach 16y ago
  PG at Startup School, 2006: The median visitor will arrive with their finger poised on the Back button. Think about your own experience: most links you follow lead to something lame. Anyone who has used the web for more than a couple weeks has been trained to click on Back after following a link. So your site has to say "Wait! Don't click on Back. This site isn't lame. Look at this, for example." http://www.paulgraham.com/startuplessons.html http://www.paulgraham.com/startuplessons.html I'm not sure how it got its current epigrammatic form, but it's surely become more succinct in the course of being repeated to hundreds of YC companies since then.
charlief 16y ago
This is the kind of summary that complements "Offer HN" posts so well. I totally missed your original thread, something I would have taken advantage of if I saw it. By the time I might have seen it, the service would be long gone. Even in that case where I missed the opportunity to get a custom assessment, here is a summary that I or thousands of future visitors can reach. The result is persistent value rather than a one off. I hope future "Offer HN" services do the same.
wheaties 16y ago
Regarding the "Who's using" stuff. Maybe I'm not your typical person but I could care less about who is using your stuff. "Featured in the NYTimes..." oh yeah? So what. Like I said, maybe I'm wrong but do you have numbers to back it up?
- paraschopra 16y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
  - ambirex 16y ago
    Another really good reference is Scientific Advertising ( http://www.abenetis.com/encyclopedia-article-59.html http://www.abenetis.com/encyclopedia-article-59.html )
- sp4rki 16y ago
  You are the exception, not the rule. I choose a product first by it's merits and second by what people have said about the product on their reviews or comments. Social proof can be of extreme benefit because of this.
edanm 16y ago
Great analysis, thank you for this. One big question - what kind of social proof can a new site offer? Without being unethical, of course. Obviously, we have no customers yet, so we can't tout any huge customers or even media attention without flat-out lying.
- paraschopra 16y ago
  As I wrote in the blog post, if you are new you have to rely on ROI proof instead. You can perhaps cite a scientific study (in your area) or make up a reasonable theoretical model. Then say something like "78% companies who did A/B testing in 2010 increased their conversion by 50% or more" So, you pitch the general concept of your startup when you are new (and don't have social proof). Later you pitch your actual product.
chrisaycock 16y ago
I always liked the Git website for these reasons. The headline states that Git is a "fast version control system". There is a an example of the commands to show how easy it is to get started. There's a list projects that use Git. And finally, there is a prominent download section. http://git-scm.com/ http://git-scm.com/
deathbob 16y ago
The website seems to be down, anybody got a cached copy?
- paraschopra 16y ago
  Sorry, should be back up.
Indyan 16y ago
Which plugin are you using for that "More In" hover text? I have seen a lot of popular websites use it, and its actually quite neat.
- treeface 16y ago
  No need for any plugin. It's fairly easy to do it yourself: http://jsfiddle.net/treeface/Z63Yt/2/ http://jsfiddle.net/treeface/Z63Yt/2/
- paraschopra 16y ago
  It is actually this plugin: http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/upprev-nytimes-style-next-post-jquery-animated-fly-in-button/ http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/upprev-nytimes-style-nex...
- Indyan 16y ago
  Thanks to both of you.
- torme 16y ago
  Off topic here, but I find these rather obnoxious. They're almost like mystery meat navigation in that they're state isn't consistent. You have a disappearing navigation element, so a user might see it at one point, misunderstand what causes it to appear, and then not be able to find something on the page that they saw before. On the other hand, they do grab the users attention, but I wonder what the ratio of successful clicks is to frustrated users. Just my two cents, and pointing out that at least some users don't think they're neat.
  - prawn 16y ago
    A news site I read has them. I see it pop up while I'm reading an article, think one of the headlines sounds interesting but then can't find it when I've finished the original article and I'm ready to read something else.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
evansolomon 16y ago
It's interesting that you chose to show Skype as a good home page. I happened to visit it today because I had to install Skype on a new computer. They make you jump through a lot of hoops to download the software and I actually pointed it out to a coworker. Any thoughts on that?
gord 16y ago
Excellent, helpful, understandable - thankyou.

177 points by paraschopra 16y ago

Here is the original "Offer HN" thread: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842768 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1842768

jeffmiller 16y ago

Cut text; reduce choices; only offer one CTA button. It's fascinating how an Occam's Razor-type force pervades successful web design.

patio11 16y ago
As always, test. I'm broadly supportive of this advice, but I know people who do long-form copy and see conversion rates slip when they switch to short form, and (while it isn't long-form) the BCC home page historically performs better with lots of text than with little.
- paraschopra 16y ago
  Yes, one example of those kinds of pages are the never ending sales pitch pages (e.g. selling parrot training). So, text _per se_ is not a bad thing on a page. But you have to provide proper flow and layout to generate interest and then seduce visitor to that prominent 'Add to Cart' button.
  - percept 16y ago
    That was my initial impression too (what about SEO?). It's about balancing the text with the layout and clear calls to action.
LiveTheDream 16y ago
When people have only one thing to process mentally and click on, guess what? They click it. In an extreme example[1], when a service failure resulted in a mobile app displaying only ads (no content) -- revenue soared. [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1753134 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1753134

vaksel 16y ago

is the "too much text" really a problem? if too much text didn't work, none of those "buy my crappy ebook and make billions like me" sales pages would work. regarding the designer, if you are just starting out and can't afford one...borrow concepts from your competitors. If you are selling shoes, borrow the design from zappos. Why? Because you know that they've optimized every single thing, since even .5% can cost them millions. I'm pretty sure that quote is from pg. And if you want to be a real jackass, you can add an exit pop to your site. The call to action thing is very important. Most users are very uncertain, if you give them too many options, they'll get confused and won't do anything. As far as social proof, yes I agree, but it's not that hard to fake the social proof. Nothing is stopping you from adding a Techcrunch image to your site. And if techcrunch bitches...just point them to that completely unrelated comment you made with a link to your site. overall good post, since I find that pretty much every website will have one of those missing.

paraschopra 16y ago
Yes "too much text" may be a problem is if it unstructured. Also, if you don't have a designer you can buy one nice-looking template from http://themeforest.net http://themeforest.net I would personally never "fake" social proof as (apart from ethical concerns) it may have legal liabilities which a startup cannot afford. EDIT: Typo in link
- vaksel 16y ago
  I'm not sure about the legal liabilities. if you add "as seen on Techcrunch", and that's in reference to a comment you made...that's not exactly a complete lie. yes it's completely unethical, but I don't think it'd be illegal
- jonp 16y ago
  I think that link should be http://themeforest.net/ http://themeforest.net/ ?
roel_v 16y ago
"if too much text didn't work, none of those "buy my crappy ebook and make billions like me" sales pages would work." You're referring to 'long copy' which is wholly different from 'throw a couple of paragraphs of text on my website because I'm too lazy to make it short or replace with graphics'. Writing long copy is a craft, and is structured completely different from the websites in the review.

michael_dorfman 16y ago

Regarding the "your greatest enemy is the back button" quote-- the earliest citations on HN are http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272 and http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1136272, attributing it to "one of the founders of BackType". Personally, I think Patio11 put a nice twist on it here, though: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1686784 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1686784

paraschopra 16y ago
I personally thought PG made it but couldn't find a citation.
- michael_dorfman 16y ago
  It could be, but I couldn't find it either. Or, I should say, Google couldn't find it.
- benohear 16y ago
  IIRC he mentioned that in his Mixergy interview.
steveklabnik 16y ago
"Obscurity is a far greater threat to authors and creative artists than piracy." - Tim O'Reilly, 2006. http://radar.oreilly.com/2006/08/piracy-is-progressive-taxation.html http://radar.oreilly.com/2006/08/piracy-is-progressive-taxat...
zach 16y ago
PG at Startup School, 2006: The median visitor will arrive with their finger poised on the Back button. Think about your own experience: most links you follow lead to something lame. Anyone who has used the web for more than a couple weeks has been trained to click on Back after following a link. So your site has to say "Wait! Don't click on Back. This site isn't lame. Look at this, for example." http://www.paulgraham.com/startuplessons.html http://www.paulgraham.com/startuplessons.html I'm not sure how it got its current epigrammatic form, but it's surely become more succinct in the course of being repeated to hundreds of YC companies since then.

charlief 16y ago

This is the kind of summary that complements "Offer HN" posts so well. I totally missed your original thread, something I would have taken advantage of if I saw it. By the time I might have seen it, the service would be long gone. Even in that case where I missed the opportunity to get a custom assessment, here is a summary that I or thousands of future visitors can reach. The result is persistent value rather than a one off. I hope future "Offer HN" services do the same.

wheaties 16y ago

Regarding the "Who's using" stuff. Maybe I'm not your typical person but I could care less about who is using your stuff. "Featured in the NYTimes..." oh yeah? So what. Like I said, maybe I'm wrong but do you have numbers to back it up?

paraschopra 16y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_conformity_experiments
- ambirex 16y ago
  Another really good reference is Scientific Advertising ( http://www.abenetis.com/encyclopedia-article-59.html http://www.abenetis.com/encyclopedia-article-59.html )
sp4rki 16y ago
You are the exception, not the rule. I choose a product first by it's merits and second by what people have said about the product on their reviews or comments. Social proof can be of extreme benefit because of this.

edanm 16y ago

Great analysis, thank you for this. One big question - what kind of social proof can a new site offer? Without being unethical, of course. Obviously, we have no customers yet, so we can't tout any huge customers or even media attention without flat-out lying.

paraschopra 16y ago
As I wrote in the blog post, if you are new you have to rely on ROI proof instead. You can perhaps cite a scientific study (in your area) or make up a reasonable theoretical model. Then say something like "78% companies who did A/B testing in 2010 increased their conversion by 50% or more" So, you pitch the general concept of your startup when you are new (and don't have social proof). Later you pitch your actual product.

chrisaycock 16y ago

I always liked the Git website for these reasons. The headline states that Git is a "fast version control system". There is a an example of the commands to show how easy it is to get started. There's a list projects that use Git. And finally, there is a prominent download section. http://git-scm.com/ http://git-scm.com/

deathbob 16y ago

The website seems to be down, anybody got a cached copy?

paraschopra 16y ago
Sorry, should be back up.

Indyan 16y ago

Which plugin are you using for that "More In" hover text? I have seen a lot of popular websites use it, and its actually quite neat.

treeface 16y ago
No need for any plugin. It's fairly easy to do it yourself: http://jsfiddle.net/treeface/Z63Yt/2/ http://jsfiddle.net/treeface/Z63Yt/2/
paraschopra 16y ago
It is actually this plugin: http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/upprev-nytimes-style-next-post-jquery-animated-fly-in-button/ http://wordpress.org/extend/plugins/upprev-nytimes-style-nex...
Indyan 16y ago
Thanks to both of you.
torme 16y ago
Off topic here, but I find these rather obnoxious. They're almost like mystery meat navigation in that they're state isn't consistent. You have a disappearing navigation element, so a user might see it at one point, misunderstand what causes it to appear, and then not be able to find something on the page that they saw before. On the other hand, they do grab the users attention, but I wonder what the ratio of successful clicks is to frustrated users. Just my two cents, and pointing out that at least some users don't think they're neat.
- prawn 16y ago
  A news site I read has them. I see it pop up while I'm reading an article, think one of the headlines sounds interesting but then can't find it when I've finished the original article and I'm ready to read something else.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

evansolomon 16y ago

It's interesting that you chose to show Skype as a good home page. I happened to visit it today because I had to install Skype on a new computer. They make you jump through a lot of hoops to download the software and I actually pointed it out to a coworker. Any thoughts on that?

gord 16y ago

Excellent, helpful, understandable - thankyou.