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I guess you could get a slightly larger apartment in Sunset Park or Jackson Heights or somewhere but you would still be paying a preposterous $2000 (realistical

I guess you could get a slightly larger apartment in Sunset Park or Jackson Heights or somewhere but you would still be paying a preposterous $2000 (realistically $2500+ in 2018) for that, and now you've added NYC's cramped, unpleasant, "state of emergency" transportation infrastructure to your daily grind. For all that you get housing that is _still_ laughably austere in comparison to what you'd get nearly anywhere else in the country. For what it's worth, I lived 7 or 8 places in about two years when I lived in NYC, in pretty much every Brooklyn neighborhood within a 20-40 minute radius from where I worked. Saved lots of money too - never lived alone, did social stuff in my neighborhood, took full advantage of the City to the best of my ability. After all that, I came to the following verdict: NYC is stupidly overpriced and has a substantial quality of life problem. I am admittedly a non-native, so perhaps some of the finer charms of the City will always be lost on me. But I don't know - I'm living in Berlin right now, which isn't _too_ drastically different, and can't say I find myself missing NYC at all.

JBReefer 8y ago
I paid $1450 for a 1 bed that was >1000 sq feet in Jackson Heights and it was _beautiful_. It's just not the Village.
nickdandakis 8y ago
Disagree about your $2k take on a Sunset Park or Jackson Heights apartment. I've lived in the latter, and that's not the case. Your "daily grind" doesn't have to happen at the same time as everyone else's. If the cramped subway bothers you, commute before (almost everyone can do this) or after (maybe not everyone can do this one though) the on-peak hours. NYC is an expensive and densely populated city to live in. Your quality of life hinges on the set of compromises you make, which are unique to the city and have a higher impact on your day-to-day. Some people don't like to make compromises and decisions that affect their everyday lives to this degree, and that's fine. But to pretend that options don't exist is ridiculous.
- busterarm 8y ago
  I live in Hell's Kitchen but I had a reverse commute to Sunset Park for 2 years, ending earlier this year. My commute time ranged anywhere from 50 minutes to 2 and a half hours, each way, every day...more often towards the latter end of that spectrum. The situation of riding the yellow line to/from Brooklyn is atrocious and not something that I plan to subject myself to again.
- alexhutcheson 8y ago
  The subway might be less cramped at off-peak times, but it's not more reliable or faster. It's still a long commute that's been getting longer and less predictable for the past ~2 years.
evanelias 8y ago
I recommend looking west -- there are $2k 1BRs in Jersey City and Hoboken with 35-minute door-to-door commutes to most tech companies in Manhattan. Many even with central air, dishwasher, and in-unit laundry! PATH's reliability numbers are better than any subway line, and in case of issues there's bus, ferry, NJT rail as alternatives. And best of all, no NYC city income tax.
- helsinki 8y ago
  Shhh - I live and work near Grove St in Jersey City. Life is sublime here.
  - rashomon 8y ago
    Can concur on the shushness and sublimation. However, PATH is meandering near the border of MTA's hellish confines and looks drunk enough to stumble in. Couple that with the incessant development (there are 4 towers in constructions near Paulus hook) and already stressed PATH infra and you can guess what can happen next. On the whole, JC is better than BK for a myriad of reasons.
    - volkl48 8y ago
      PATH's infrastructure is mechanically sound and improving. I would not be concerned about it following in the MTA's tracks in the signal delay/equipment failure sense. Overcrowding is certainly an issue and while I know there are some capacity improvements in progress (CBTC signaling, more cars), I have never seen a clear timeline from the PA as to when more capacity will actually happen.
- jtreminio 8y ago
  > there are $2k 1BRs [..]. Many even with central air, dishwasher, and in-unit laundry! I'm trying to decide if this is a tongue-in-cheek post or not.
  - schrodinger 8y ago
nine_k 8y ago
Anecdata vs anecdata. In 2011, I rented a 2-bedroom apartment next to the beautiful Prospect park, within a trivial walking distance to 2 subway lines, 30 mins by train to my office in Manhattan, for $1500. It's not a posh neighborhood, but I don't care.
- rco8786 8y ago
  I’m not sure that you’re disproving any point. You paid $1500 for a 2br apartment in a crappy neighborhood.
  - nine_k 8y ago
    Depends on what you need in life. Some need night life, some need good schools, some need short commute, some need a park to walk / run, etc. Some even prefer Nashville.
  - irq11 8y ago
    I defy you to find a 2 bedroom apartment in a non-crappy neighborhood in any major American city for less than $1k. Even smaller cities won’t make that cut - it’s tough to find that in Columbus, let alone Denver or Dallas. You can always trade off commute time or access to jobs and culture for lower rent. It’s pointless to complain about more desirable cities being more expensive; if you want to live in a popular area it’s going to cost you more.
    - rco8786 8y ago
      Goalposts are moving quickly. $1500 in 2011 is closer to $1800-2000 in 2018. And where did under $1k come from? I own a newer construction 2Br condo in midtown Atlanta with a 24-hour doorman, pool, dedicated parking, and skyline views and my monthly payment including HOA is about $1300. Brand new 2Br apartments in the building next door start around $1700. Just some more anecdata.
      - irq11 8y ago
        No they aren’t. I’m putting a baseline on hyperbole: at $1000 today, you’d be close to the bottom of the market for a 2 bedroom apartment in any desirable market in the US. The OP paid (in 2018 dollars) only twice the minimum, in a fairly desirable part of one of the economic, cultural and business capitals of the world. Basically, you have ridiculous standards if you think Prospect Park is crappy, and your price expectations are irrational. Even you admit that your next-door neighbors will be getting roughly the same deal...but they’ll be in Atlanta, not NYC. It’s fine if you don’t like NYC, but you seem to have trouble accepting that a great many people do like it enough to pay more for it. Also, let’s talk about moving the goalposts: you’re comparing ownership and renting as if they’re the same thing.
j-c-hewitt 8y ago
I lived in Sunset Park for years. My 2600 square foot house on 10 acres of land has the same combined payment for mortgage+tax as my apartment from ~10 years ago and that neighborhood was worse then than it is now. My washer and dryer are enormous, I have a car, and I live 5 minutes from the interstate on a beautiful wooded property with faster internet than I ever had in New York. I am originally from NYC and I think the time to buy a house there was around the 1980s. If you have no hope of affording a good property there now in 2018, you have no business living in NYC because you are on the wrong side of the trade there. All of your surplus is going to be captured by the hyper successful alliance of landlords and the government. Renters are just asking to be tag team bodyslammed. Every time you get a raise, your landlord also will give himself a raise.
busterarm 8y ago
Berlin is a very good analogue to NYC, I've found, except the rampant indoor cigarette smoking, which makes it unbearable for me.
- magduf 8y ago
  Really? Indoor? I just took a 2-week vacation in Bavaria, and indeed, the rampant smoking was shocking to me as an American. However, I did not see it inside, only outside. It was especially annoying when I wanted to look at a restaurant's menu outside and some idiot with a cigarette was standing in the doorway; I just went by and found another restaurant when that happened. I saw tons of people (usually male) smoking outside right next to doorways, in entranceways, on the sidewalks, etc., many times in the rain and cold. The level of cigarette smoking, plus the poor city air quality due to all the diesel cars, really made me question if I could stand living in Germany any time in the next 20 years (probably about as long as it'll take to become more like America now). However, I did not once see anyone smoking indoors, and it seemed to be illegal in public places from what I could tell. Are things different in Berlin?
  - cribbles 8y ago
    Indoor smoking is quite common here, but only in bars and clubs.
  - busterarm 8y ago
    It's illegal in Berlin as well but completely unenforced in bars and clubs. Also in general the smoking population of adults is like 1/3 of men and 1/4 of women. I'm an occasional smoker and I even find it disgusting.
    - magduf 8y ago
      I never go to bars and clubs, so maybe that's why I never saw it indoors.
  - kevstev 8y ago
    I was in Berlin exactly a year ago, and it is indeed unberable. Think bars so filled with smoke you can't see all the way across the room. Smoking outside just wasn't a thing, and it was in the 30s when I was there, so while there is in general a good outdoor drinking culture where you can avoid it for much of the year, in the winter you just can't. I had to leave some places because it was so unbearable.
sotojuan 8y ago
I live in Sunset Park now and pay $2000 for a two bedroom apartment, though the second bedroom fits only a twin sized bed. It was mostly a bonus room and use it for storage. My previous Sunset Park apartment, of just one bedroom, raised its rent to over $2000 before I moved out. Sunset Park, unless you live close to 8th Avenue, is not even that nice or quiet of a neighborhood to live in. Because Sunset Park has a) high home ownership rates and b) tons of apartment exclusive to the Chinese community, it's actually not a very cheap place to live in. Or perhaps that's just how expensive NYC is now. I've chosen to move to a nicer neighborhood next year because if I'm going to pay $2000-2400 I'd rather live closer to Manhattan, even if the apartment is smaller.

JBReefer 8y ago

I paid $1450 for a 1 bed that was >1000 sq feet in Jackson Heights and it was _beautiful_. It's just not the Village.

nickdandakis 8y ago

Disagree about your $2k take on a Sunset Park or Jackson Heights apartment. I've lived in the latter, and that's not the case. Your "daily grind" doesn't have to happen at the same time as everyone else's. If the cramped subway bothers you, commute before (almost everyone can do this) or after (maybe not everyone can do this one though) the on-peak hours. NYC is an expensive and densely populated city to live in. Your quality of life hinges on the set of compromises you make, which are unique to the city and have a higher impact on your day-to-day. Some people don't like to make compromises and decisions that affect their everyday lives to this degree, and that's fine. But to pretend that options don't exist is ridiculous.

busterarm 8y ago
I live in Hell's Kitchen but I had a reverse commute to Sunset Park for 2 years, ending earlier this year. My commute time ranged anywhere from 50 minutes to 2 and a half hours, each way, every day...more often towards the latter end of that spectrum. The situation of riding the yellow line to/from Brooklyn is atrocious and not something that I plan to subject myself to again.
alexhutcheson 8y ago
The subway might be less cramped at off-peak times, but it's not more reliable or faster. It's still a long commute that's been getting longer and less predictable for the past ~2 years.

evanelias 8y ago

I recommend looking west -- there are $2k 1BRs in Jersey City and Hoboken with 35-minute door-to-door commutes to most tech companies in Manhattan. Many even with central air, dishwasher, and in-unit laundry! PATH's reliability numbers are better than any subway line, and in case of issues there's bus, ferry, NJT rail as alternatives. And best of all, no NYC city income tax.

helsinki 8y ago
Shhh - I live and work near Grove St in Jersey City. Life is sublime here.
- rashomon 8y ago
  Can concur on the shushness and sublimation. However, PATH is meandering near the border of MTA's hellish confines and looks drunk enough to stumble in. Couple that with the incessant development (there are 4 towers in constructions near Paulus hook) and already stressed PATH infra and you can guess what can happen next. On the whole, JC is better than BK for a myriad of reasons.
  - volkl48 8y ago
    PATH's infrastructure is mechanically sound and improving. I would not be concerned about it following in the MTA's tracks in the signal delay/equipment failure sense. Overcrowding is certainly an issue and while I know there are some capacity improvements in progress (CBTC signaling, more cars), I have never seen a clear timeline from the PA as to when more capacity will actually happen.
jtreminio 8y ago
> there are $2k 1BRs [..]. Many even with central air, dishwasher, and in-unit laundry! I'm trying to decide if this is a tongue-in-cheek post or not.
- schrodinger 8y ago

nine_k 8y ago

Anecdata vs anecdata. In 2011, I rented a 2-bedroom apartment next to the beautiful Prospect park, within a trivial walking distance to 2 subway lines, 30 mins by train to my office in Manhattan, for $1500. It's not a posh neighborhood, but I don't care.

rco8786 8y ago
I’m not sure that you’re disproving any point. You paid $1500 for a 2br apartment in a crappy neighborhood.
- nine_k 8y ago
  Depends on what you need in life. Some need night life, some need good schools, some need short commute, some need a park to walk / run, etc. Some even prefer Nashville.
- irq11 8y ago
  I defy you to find a 2 bedroom apartment in a non-crappy neighborhood in any major American city for less than $1k. Even smaller cities won’t make that cut - it’s tough to find that in Columbus, let alone Denver or Dallas. You can always trade off commute time or access to jobs and culture for lower rent. It’s pointless to complain about more desirable cities being more expensive; if you want to live in a popular area it’s going to cost you more.
  - rco8786 8y ago
    Goalposts are moving quickly. $1500 in 2011 is closer to $1800-2000 in 2018. And where did under $1k come from? I own a newer construction 2Br condo in midtown Atlanta with a 24-hour doorman, pool, dedicated parking, and skyline views and my monthly payment including HOA is about $1300. Brand new 2Br apartments in the building next door start around $1700. Just some more anecdata.
    - irq11 8y ago
      No they aren’t. I’m putting a baseline on hyperbole: at $1000 today, you’d be close to the bottom of the market for a 2 bedroom apartment in any desirable market in the US. The OP paid (in 2018 dollars) only twice the minimum, in a fairly desirable part of one of the economic, cultural and business capitals of the world. Basically, you have ridiculous standards if you think Prospect Park is crappy, and your price expectations are irrational. Even you admit that your next-door neighbors will be getting roughly the same deal...but they’ll be in Atlanta, not NYC. It’s fine if you don’t like NYC, but you seem to have trouble accepting that a great many people do like it enough to pay more for it. Also, let’s talk about moving the goalposts: you’re comparing ownership and renting as if they’re the same thing.

j-c-hewitt 8y ago

I lived in Sunset Park for years. My 2600 square foot house on 10 acres of land has the same combined payment for mortgage+tax as my apartment from ~10 years ago and that neighborhood was worse then than it is now. My washer and dryer are enormous, I have a car, and I live 5 minutes from the interstate on a beautiful wooded property with faster internet than I ever had in New York. I am originally from NYC and I think the time to buy a house there was around the 1980s. If you have no hope of affording a good property there now in 2018, you have no business living in NYC because you are on the wrong side of the trade there. All of your surplus is going to be captured by the hyper successful alliance of landlords and the government. Renters are just asking to be tag team bodyslammed. Every time you get a raise, your landlord also will give himself a raise.

busterarm 8y ago

Berlin is a very good analogue to NYC, I've found, except the rampant indoor cigarette smoking, which makes it unbearable for me.

magduf 8y ago
Really? Indoor? I just took a 2-week vacation in Bavaria, and indeed, the rampant smoking was shocking to me as an American. However, I did not see it inside, only outside. It was especially annoying when I wanted to look at a restaurant's menu outside and some idiot with a cigarette was standing in the doorway; I just went by and found another restaurant when that happened. I saw tons of people (usually male) smoking outside right next to doorways, in entranceways, on the sidewalks, etc., many times in the rain and cold. The level of cigarette smoking, plus the poor city air quality due to all the diesel cars, really made me question if I could stand living in Germany any time in the next 20 years (probably about as long as it'll take to become more like America now). However, I did not once see anyone smoking indoors, and it seemed to be illegal in public places from what I could tell. Are things different in Berlin?
- cribbles 8y ago
  Indoor smoking is quite common here, but only in bars and clubs.
- busterarm 8y ago
  It's illegal in Berlin as well but completely unenforced in bars and clubs. Also in general the smoking population of adults is like 1/3 of men and 1/4 of women. I'm an occasional smoker and I even find it disgusting.
  - magduf 8y ago
    I never go to bars and clubs, so maybe that's why I never saw it indoors.
- kevstev 8y ago
  I was in Berlin exactly a year ago, and it is indeed unberable. Think bars so filled with smoke you can't see all the way across the room. Smoking outside just wasn't a thing, and it was in the 30s when I was there, so while there is in general a good outdoor drinking culture where you can avoid it for much of the year, in the winter you just can't. I had to leave some places because it was so unbearable.

sotojuan 8y ago

I live in Sunset Park now and pay $2000 for a two bedroom apartment, though the second bedroom fits only a twin sized bed. It was mostly a bonus room and use it for storage. My previous Sunset Park apartment, of just one bedroom, raised its rent to over $2000 before I moved out. Sunset Park, unless you live close to 8th Avenue, is not even that nice or quiet of a neighborhood to live in. Because Sunset Park has a) high home ownership rates and b) tons of apartment exclusive to the Chinese community, it's actually not a very cheap place to live in. Or perhaps that's just how expensive NYC is now. I've chosen to move to a nicer neighborhood next year because if I'm going to pay $2000-2400 I'd rather live closer to Manhattan, even if the apartment is smaller.