4 ms·

I never really got it why people cheat on expenses. Apart from the fact that theft (at least in this case) is morally repugnant it's a sure fire way to get fire

I never really got it why people cheat on expenses. Apart from the fact that theft (at least in this case) is morally repugnant it's a sure fire way to get fired if your employer needs any reason at all. Expenses, as implied in the name, are meant to reimburse employees for expenses fronted for their employers. It's not an enrichment scheme to pad your salary or to lay off unrelated expenses on your employer. Bonus for those geniuses, which expense strip club visits. This seems the expense equivalent of surfing porn at work; stupid!

dpwm 8y ago
It depends on the environment and the employee. In the cases I personally know of, there was at least an element of the employee believing they had been cheated out of something: perks being removed, legitimate expenses being denied for seemingly arbitrary reasons.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  perks being removed, legitimate expenses being denied for seemingly arbitrary reasons I think that's fundamentally wrong and should - at least in an ideal world - never happen. I just don't think that fibbing expenses is a good way to get back at your employer. I'm aware that this reply has a certain whiff of Euro centrism, where such things are less likely to happen and workers really have better recourse to get back at their employers. Shit like mandatory arbitration agreements would be laughed out of court herearound.
  - dpwm 8y ago
    > I think that's fundamentally wrong and should - at least in an ideal world - never happen. Agreed. But it does. Some of the perks removed were never perks but a form of negligence. Some of the expenses being denied for seemingly arbitrary reasons were denied because there is no way they can be justified as business expenses, but somebody in the past authorized them. > I just don't think that fibbing expenses is a good way to get back at your employer. We're in agreement on that. Just like theft from employer, it can only realistically have one outcome regarding employment once discovered -- no matter how small. > I'm aware that this reply has a certain whiff of Euro centrism, where such things are less likely to happen and workers really have better recourse to get back at their employers. My experiences relate to the UK -- albeit during the period where the recourse to get back at employers required paying for an employment tribunal to hear your case. Even after that was reversed, most disgruntled employees don't go to employment tribunals. > Shit like mandatory arbitration agreements would be laughed out of court herearound. Agreed. But you don't need those for injustices to be felt. Most employees don't really consider that expenses have to be a justifiable expense by the employer for tax purposes and that the people authorizing them are possibly over-worked and only distrust few people enough to check every item.
  - dcosson 8y ago
    I don't think this is an EU vs US issue or an arbitration issue. Even if every dollar you spend while traveling is reimbursed, you don't really get compensated for the non-monetary annoyances of traveling. You might have to fly at weird hours and be tired or jetlagged, and you miss a few nights away from your family. Maybe you're traveling during the work day so you are being paid for that time, but you might have had to wake up earlier than usual, or sit in traffic on the way to the airport, or all kinds of other things that aren't compensated by the company. Even if nothing does go wrong, traveling is still somewhat stressful for a lot of people just because you're aware of the risk that something might go wrong. Not to mention the fact that you're forced to lend the company money for a month or two at 0% interest. If you have no problem with this imbalance between the company and employee, that's great for you. But IMO it's very easy to see why employees are incentivized to stretch their reimbursements as far as possible to help make some of it back. It's hard for me to see this as morally repugnant.
lawn 8y ago
People don't cheat because the large repercussions if caught, they cheat if it's easy to get away with it. If nobody even reviews your expenses you can get away with buying alcohol (as is the case at our company...) or as you say strip club visits.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  If nobody even reviews your expenses you can get away with buying alcohol When travelling on business this was completely acceptable as long as it wasn't excessive or stand-alone bar bills. A bottle of reasonable wine, or a couple beers with dinner was considered a no-brainer and fully reimbursed. On a sidenote: When I was on training in New York dinners tended to be expensive. Often, but not always, more expensive than what I would consider reasonable. For example: 80$ (in 1996 $) for a nice steak dinner is not something I would consder reasonable. When I came back to home office I made them aware that there where a couple or three of such dinners and they should just reimburse me what they deem reasonable, or reflected in the expense policy. I was reimbursed for the full amount. (Probably a number of 7$ deli lunches helped). That was the Swiss subsidiary of an American software vendor.
cascom 8y ago
Most of the expense “fraud” I’ve seen has actually been implicitly or explicitly condoned by the firm - e.g corporate wants higher sales - sales team delivers, in the process taking clients to expensive dinners, strip clubs, skiing etc. (all out of policy) - management is happy and doesn’t want to “know”
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
UncleEntity 8y ago
I used to, a long time ago, work in a small office where we were expected to drive around and "do sales" during the slow hours. Of course we didn't but my boss wanted corporate to think we did and he would get upset if my expense report was lacking so...every mile I put on my VW Bus the entire time I worked there ended up on the expense report. It used to be a chore keeping up with it so if they ever came out and looked at my odometer it wasn't obvious what was going on since I had to account for my actual commute to/from work but I managed to keep corporate happy which kept my boss happy which made that crappy job somewhat bearable.
WalterBright 8y ago
Theft of office supplies is pervasive, even by well-paid people.

dpwm 8y ago

It depends on the environment and the employee. In the cases I personally know of, there was at least an element of the employee believing they had been cheated out of something: perks being removed, legitimate expenses being denied for seemingly arbitrary reasons.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
perks being removed, legitimate expenses being denied for seemingly arbitrary reasons I think that's fundamentally wrong and should - at least in an ideal world - never happen. I just don't think that fibbing expenses is a good way to get back at your employer. I'm aware that this reply has a certain whiff of Euro centrism, where such things are less likely to happen and workers really have better recourse to get back at their employers. Shit like mandatory arbitration agreements would be laughed out of court herearound.
- dpwm 8y ago
  > I think that's fundamentally wrong and should - at least in an ideal world - never happen. Agreed. But it does. Some of the perks removed were never perks but a form of negligence. Some of the expenses being denied for seemingly arbitrary reasons were denied because there is no way they can be justified as business expenses, but somebody in the past authorized them. > I just don't think that fibbing expenses is a good way to get back at your employer. We're in agreement on that. Just like theft from employer, it can only realistically have one outcome regarding employment once discovered -- no matter how small. > I'm aware that this reply has a certain whiff of Euro centrism, where such things are less likely to happen and workers really have better recourse to get back at their employers. My experiences relate to the UK -- albeit during the period where the recourse to get back at employers required paying for an employment tribunal to hear your case. Even after that was reversed, most disgruntled employees don't go to employment tribunals. > Shit like mandatory arbitration agreements would be laughed out of court herearound. Agreed. But you don't need those for injustices to be felt. Most employees don't really consider that expenses have to be a justifiable expense by the employer for tax purposes and that the people authorizing them are possibly over-worked and only distrust few people enough to check every item.
- dcosson 8y ago
  I don't think this is an EU vs US issue or an arbitration issue. Even if every dollar you spend while traveling is reimbursed, you don't really get compensated for the non-monetary annoyances of traveling. You might have to fly at weird hours and be tired or jetlagged, and you miss a few nights away from your family. Maybe you're traveling during the work day so you are being paid for that time, but you might have had to wake up earlier than usual, or sit in traffic on the way to the airport, or all kinds of other things that aren't compensated by the company. Even if nothing does go wrong, traveling is still somewhat stressful for a lot of people just because you're aware of the risk that something might go wrong. Not to mention the fact that you're forced to lend the company money for a month or two at 0% interest. If you have no problem with this imbalance between the company and employee, that's great for you. But IMO it's very easy to see why employees are incentivized to stretch their reimbursements as far as possible to help make some of it back. It's hard for me to see this as morally repugnant.

lawn 8y ago

People don't cheat because the large repercussions if caught, they cheat if it's easy to get away with it. If nobody even reviews your expenses you can get away with buying alcohol (as is the case at our company...) or as you say strip club visits.

CaptainZapp 8y ago
If nobody even reviews your expenses you can get away with buying alcohol When travelling on business this was completely acceptable as long as it wasn't excessive or stand-alone bar bills. A bottle of reasonable wine, or a couple beers with dinner was considered a no-brainer and fully reimbursed. On a sidenote: When I was on training in New York dinners tended to be expensive. Often, but not always, more expensive than what I would consider reasonable. For example: 80$ (in 1996 $) for a nice steak dinner is not something I would consder reasonable. When I came back to home office I made them aware that there where a couple or three of such dinners and they should just reimburse me what they deem reasonable, or reflected in the expense policy. I was reimbursed for the full amount. (Probably a number of 7$ deli lunches helped). That was the Swiss subsidiary of an American software vendor.

cascom 8y ago

Most of the expense “fraud” I’ve seen has actually been implicitly or explicitly condoned by the firm - e.g corporate wants higher sales - sales team delivers, in the process taking clients to expensive dinners, strip clubs, skiing etc. (all out of policy) - management is happy and doesn’t want to “know”

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

UncleEntity 8y ago

I used to, a long time ago, work in a small office where we were expected to drive around and "do sales" during the slow hours. Of course we didn't but my boss wanted corporate to think we did and he would get upset if my expense report was lacking so...every mile I put on my VW Bus the entire time I worked there ended up on the expense report. It used to be a chore keeping up with it so if they ever came out and looked at my odometer it wasn't obvious what was going on since I had to account for my actual commute to/from work but I managed to keep corporate happy which kept my boss happy which made that crappy job somewhat bearable.

WalterBright 8y ago

Theft of office supplies is pervasive, even by well-paid people.