4 ms·

This is the same mistake the Democrats in the US are continuing to make. They see Trump as an aberration, "Russia", "Cambridge Analytica" etc. But what they a

by lsllc 8y ago

This is the same mistake the Democrats in the US are continuing to make. They see Trump as an aberration, "Russia", "Cambridge Analytica" etc. But what they are not seeing is that something drove people to vote for Trump; something drove people to vote for BrExit, Catalonian independence. The same something that is making these people protest in France. That's the problem to be solved.

dragonwriter 8y ago
Neither the progressive populist faction nor the neoliberal moderate faction of the Democratic Party is making the mistake you charge; he Progressive populist faction was aimed at the problem before the Trump symptom had even fully manifested (not because it was fueling nationalism, but because they were concerned with the same underlying problems independently); the (decreasingly, but still) dominant neoliberal faction was certainly in denial about it until too late to prevent Trump, but when Hillary Clinton, as part of a discussion series on the rise of right-wing nationalist populism in Europe and the Americas says that Europe needs to curb immigration to cut off the fuel for nationalist populism, she's clearly focussed on the problem, whatever you think of her proposed solution.
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  Both factions completely ignored white Midwest people in 2016, though. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin. And the progressive wing's go-to is "they're racist". Those 4 states voted for Obama twice, how racist can they be?
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Both factions completely ignored white Midwest people in 2016, though. No, they didn’t both do that; the progressive populist faction, particularly, did not (the fact that the progressive faction was outperforming among constituencies like rural whites, both nationally and specifically in the Midwest, that were traditionally seen as more conservative, whereas the neoliberal faction’s strength was focussed in what were conventionally seen as progressive urban/coastal strongholds and minority constituencies was one of the most heavily reported surprises of the primary, and was a direct result of that.) The neoliberal faction won the primary and controlled general election strategy, controlling both the Presidential campaign and the DNC, sure, but it wasn't both factions ignoring the constituency you point to.
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      Those white people certainly didn't think the progressive wing was listening to them. Union guys went for Trump in the Midwest. I recognize that you care about about them, but they didn't buy it from the overall party, and definitely not from the progressive wing. What's the default "progressive wing" opinion on white men? If we're judging by the loudest opinions? What do their wives think about that, if the man happens to be the breadwinner?
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > Union guys went for Trump in the Midwest. Again, the progressive populist faction wasn't involved in the Presidential general election. So, yeah, all you are doing is pointing out that the neoliberal faction was ignoring the problem, which I said at the outset. > I recognize that you care about about them, but they didn't buy it from the overall party, and definitely not from the progressive wing. Again, the progressive populist faction’s support from the demographic in question was one of the big stories of the primary (and one of the reasons Trump specifically targeted Sanders supporters—overtly and by name—in the general.) > What's the default "progressive wing" opinion on white men? The progressive populist faction is the segment of the party least interested in (other maybe than economic class-based) identity politics.
      - hnmonkey 8y ago
        Yes, the midwest people never think the progressive wing is listening no matter what and no matter how much listening and actual solution creation happens. That's really more on them than anyone else. The party that had plans to move people from coal shoveling to solar installers? Democrats. The part that didn't actually care about the people in the midwest and just lied to them that their jobs would be fine or would come back? Republicans. Their jobs are going the way of the dodo right now and have been over the past 2 years. What's the progressive wing opinion on white men? There isn't one... like at all. It's not a thing that exists currently as a goal of theirs to focus on. Are you ascribing a white men opinion to Democrats from somewhere?
sjg007 8y ago
“It’s the economy stupid” (bill clinton) and a bunch of racists.

by lsllc 8y ago

dragonwriter 8y ago

Neither the progressive populist faction nor the neoliberal moderate faction of the Democratic Party is making the mistake you charge; he Progressive populist faction was aimed at the problem before the Trump symptom had even fully manifested (not because it was fueling nationalism, but because they were concerned with the same underlying problems independently); the (decreasingly, but still) dominant neoliberal faction was certainly in denial about it until too late to prevent Trump, but when Hillary Clinton, as part of a discussion series on the rise of right-wing nationalist populism in Europe and the Americas says that Europe needs to curb immigration to cut off the fuel for nationalist populism, she's clearly focussed on the problem, whatever you think of her proposed solution.

yourbandsucks 8y ago
Both factions completely ignored white Midwest people in 2016, though. Pennsylvania, Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin. And the progressive wing's go-to is "they're racist". Those 4 states voted for Obama twice, how racist can they be?
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Both factions completely ignored white Midwest people in 2016, though. No, they didn’t both do that; the progressive populist faction, particularly, did not (the fact that the progressive faction was outperforming among constituencies like rural whites, both nationally and specifically in the Midwest, that were traditionally seen as more conservative, whereas the neoliberal faction’s strength was focussed in what were conventionally seen as progressive urban/coastal strongholds and minority constituencies was one of the most heavily reported surprises of the primary, and was a direct result of that.) The neoliberal faction won the primary and controlled general election strategy, controlling both the Presidential campaign and the DNC, sure, but it wasn't both factions ignoring the constituency you point to.
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    Those white people certainly didn't think the progressive wing was listening to them. Union guys went for Trump in the Midwest. I recognize that you care about about them, but they didn't buy it from the overall party, and definitely not from the progressive wing. What's the default "progressive wing" opinion on white men? If we're judging by the loudest opinions? What do their wives think about that, if the man happens to be the breadwinner?
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > Union guys went for Trump in the Midwest. Again, the progressive populist faction wasn't involved in the Presidential general election. So, yeah, all you are doing is pointing out that the neoliberal faction was ignoring the problem, which I said at the outset. > I recognize that you care about about them, but they didn't buy it from the overall party, and definitely not from the progressive wing. Again, the progressive populist faction’s support from the demographic in question was one of the big stories of the primary (and one of the reasons Trump specifically targeted Sanders supporters—overtly and by name—in the general.) > What's the default "progressive wing" opinion on white men? The progressive populist faction is the segment of the party least interested in (other maybe than economic class-based) identity politics.
    - hnmonkey 8y ago
      Yes, the midwest people never think the progressive wing is listening no matter what and no matter how much listening and actual solution creation happens. That's really more on them than anyone else. The party that had plans to move people from coal shoveling to solar installers? Democrats. The part that didn't actually care about the people in the midwest and just lied to them that their jobs would be fine or would come back? Republicans. Their jobs are going the way of the dodo right now and have been over the past 2 years. What's the progressive wing opinion on white men? There isn't one... like at all. It's not a thing that exists currently as a goal of theirs to focus on. Are you ascribing a white men opinion to Democrats from somewhere?

sjg007 8y ago

“It’s the economy stupid” (bill clinton) and a bunch of racists.