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Interesting theory and thread: https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/1069776335336292352 https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/10697763353362923...

Interesting theory and thread: https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/1069776335336292352 https://twitter.com/SwiftOnSecurity/status/10697763353362923... “This isn’t about Chrome. This is about ElectronJS. Microsoft thinks EdgeHTML cannot get to drop-in feature-parity with Chromium to replace it in Electron apps, whose duplication is becoming a significant performance drain. They want to single-instance Electron with their own fork”

interesthrow2 8y ago
The irony. They had HTA apps (running on IE engine which still work more or less, I replaced most default Win10 apps like the image viewer and the "groove" music player with a version of them built with HTA since they were slow as hell to start up) for 20 years already, they did barely anything with it, they didn't really invest seriously in a good browser engine (Edge isn't) and now all they can do is use Google's? typical Microsoft... reminds me the whole ES4/Jscript.net debacle only to then reinvent the wheel (ineffectively) with Typescript... those who don't know the story should read about it, how many years wasted? 10, 15 years?... What MS is really doing is replacing HTA,WinStore apps, whatever with Chromium, because their own tech can't compete with Chromium as they didn't seriously invest in it. I'm actually starting to believe the people who are claiming that MS is rebuilding Office in JS from scratch...
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Their desktop strategy is really confusing. I think even to themselves. It seems since around 2000 or when .NET came out they lost direction, repeatedly tried something, didn't really finish and dropped it. Mobile strategy wasn't much better.
  - giancarlostoro 8y ago
    They are fragmented and not under a single focus and that is the problem. While the executives at the top are focused on cloud those in charge of the OS and other crucial products are making some oddball decisions for whatever reason. If Microsoft could push all their teams towards a consistent vision it would be great. Otherwise we will continue to see this giant love-hate of Microsoft vs the appreciation they deserve for the things they do get right. I am company neutral so I try to appreciate companies that do some things right.
- est 8y ago
  HTA combined with ActiveXObject can do so much more than crappy w3c standard stuff. dHTML FTW!
  - Piskvorrr 8y ago
    Yup. Alas, that's not a feature, that's a gaping security hole. (Had the misfortune of working on a HTA e-mail client. Turns out, some of the VBS viruses of the age were executable in HTA context...hilarity ensued.)
    - est 8y ago
      electron apps are basically static linked sandbox. I am sure upgrading static linked programs is easy. :D
      - Piskvorrr 8y ago
        If I could warrant a guess, it would be a completely new version to go over to the "shared-renderer" model.
- belltaco 8y ago
  >now all they can do is use Google's Wasn't WebKit Apple's first? And before that KDE's KHTML and KJS. Funny how the narrative has changed.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Wasn't WebKit Apple's first? Yes, but while Blink forked from WebKit, it isn't WebKit. > Funny how the narrative has changed. That's because the facts changed.
    - belltaco 8y ago
      Well, at one point 'all they could do' is take Apple's. And later iterated on it, which MS just might do in the future.
- im3w1l 8y ago
  I think their hand was forced by antitrust action against IE.
- JBiserkov 8y ago
  >I'm actually starting to believe the people who are claiming that MS is rebuilding Office in JS from scratch... Office is C++, with 85-95% code shared between Windows, OS X, Android, iOS and Web; with a very tiny presentation layer on top. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmByeQ_ulo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmByeQ_ulo
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    That's an interesting video. Office has developed an incredible toolset for OS independent development and also very powerful UI libraries. I always wonder how Windows desktop development could look if they had released office components as libraries for developers. I think Windows development went downhill when office introduced the ribbon and started to deviate from the standard look and feel of the OS.
- mr_toad 8y ago
  > MS is rebuilding Office in JS from scratch... Well if it’s going to run on Electron, that’s a given.
cjbprime 8y ago
Honestly having trouble making a coherent strategy out of those words, despite knowing what all of them mean. Seems like at the least it is written with way more confidence than could possibly be appropriate.
- cpeterso 8y ago
  Perhaps Microsoft developers, with access to Windows' source code, can better optimize Google's upstream Chromium on Windows for the benefit of Electron apps using Google's Chromium? Otherwise, porting Edge to Chromium isn't going to anything for Electron apps.
- TimTheTinker 8y ago
  I think it's referring to Microsoft's own Electron-powered apps, like VSCode. There have been rumblings in the past about MS wanting to fork Electron and replace Chromium with EdgeHTML in their fork, but it sounds like the strategy has changed to forking Chromium and using that in their future Electron fork instead. I have no idea if this correctly interprets the SwiftOnSecurity tweet, but that's the best I can make of it.
  - cjbprime 8y ago
    That sounds fine, it just sounds unrelated to a decision to kill off Edge. You can maintain Edge as a web browser while using Chromium Electron. If you're Microsoft, your decision on whether or not to maintain Edge as a web engine is unlikely to completely pivotally depend upon whether you end up choosing Chromium Electron or Edge Electron. So the tweet doesn't make sense to me.
  - cozuya 8y ago
    Off topic but I'll be that guy: I am continually blown away by just how good VSCode is and how it very much overcame two huge obstacles: being an election app, and its poisonous name.
    - manigandham 8y ago
c-smile 8y ago
I had that suspicion too when looking on how much resources they put into Visual Code editor.
morpheuskafka 8y ago
I don't even see why it would have to be a full fork, could just be a drop-in replacement for whatever npm modules builds them into Windows installers/EXEs. But it would definitely make sense. It would be another great way for MS to emphasize cross-platform, because the Linux/Mac support would already be there and be left completely alone.
arendtio 8y ago
That makes sense. I might sound a little absurd at first, but recently I came across the documentation about submitting PWAs to the Microsoft Store [1], which completes the idea that Microsoft wants to embrace apps built with web technologies. After all, Electron apps are just the makeshift solution until we have all required APIs available within the browser(s). [1]: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/progressive-web-apps/microsoft-store https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/progressive-...

interesthrow2 8y ago

The irony. They had HTA apps (running on IE engine which still work more or less, I replaced most default Win10 apps like the image viewer and the "groove" music player with a version of them built with HTA since they were slow as hell to start up) for 20 years already, they did barely anything with it, they didn't really invest seriously in a good browser engine (Edge isn't) and now all they can do is use Google's? typical Microsoft... reminds me the whole ES4/Jscript.net debacle only to then reinvent the wheel (ineffectively) with Typescript... those who don't know the story should read about it, how many years wasted? 10, 15 years?... What MS is really doing is replacing HTA,WinStore apps, whatever with Chromium, because their own tech can't compete with Chromium as they didn't seriously invest in it. I'm actually starting to believe the people who are claiming that MS is rebuilding Office in JS from scratch...

maxxxxx 8y ago
Their desktop strategy is really confusing. I think even to themselves. It seems since around 2000 or when .NET came out they lost direction, repeatedly tried something, didn't really finish and dropped it. Mobile strategy wasn't much better.
- giancarlostoro 8y ago
  They are fragmented and not under a single focus and that is the problem. While the executives at the top are focused on cloud those in charge of the OS and other crucial products are making some oddball decisions for whatever reason. If Microsoft could push all their teams towards a consistent vision it would be great. Otherwise we will continue to see this giant love-hate of Microsoft vs the appreciation they deserve for the things they do get right. I am company neutral so I try to appreciate companies that do some things right.
est 8y ago
HTA combined with ActiveXObject can do so much more than crappy w3c standard stuff. dHTML FTW!
- Piskvorrr 8y ago
  Yup. Alas, that's not a feature, that's a gaping security hole. (Had the misfortune of working on a HTA e-mail client. Turns out, some of the VBS viruses of the age were executable in HTA context...hilarity ensued.)
  - est 8y ago
    electron apps are basically static linked sandbox. I am sure upgrading static linked programs is easy. :D
    - Piskvorrr 8y ago
      If I could warrant a guess, it would be a completely new version to go over to the "shared-renderer" model.
belltaco 8y ago
>now all they can do is use Google's Wasn't WebKit Apple's first? And before that KDE's KHTML and KJS. Funny how the narrative has changed.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Wasn't WebKit Apple's first? Yes, but while Blink forked from WebKit, it isn't WebKit. > Funny how the narrative has changed. That's because the facts changed.
  - belltaco 8y ago
    Well, at one point 'all they could do' is take Apple's. And later iterated on it, which MS just might do in the future.
im3w1l 8y ago
I think their hand was forced by antitrust action against IE.
JBiserkov 8y ago
>I'm actually starting to believe the people who are claiming that MS is rebuilding Office in JS from scratch... Office is C++, with 85-95% code shared between Windows, OS X, Android, iOS and Web; with a very tiny presentation layer on top. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmByeQ_ulo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zFmByeQ_ulo
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  That's an interesting video. Office has developed an incredible toolset for OS independent development and also very powerful UI libraries. I always wonder how Windows desktop development could look if they had released office components as libraries for developers. I think Windows development went downhill when office introduced the ribbon and started to deviate from the standard look and feel of the OS.
mr_toad 8y ago
> MS is rebuilding Office in JS from scratch... Well if it’s going to run on Electron, that’s a given.

cjbprime 8y ago

Honestly having trouble making a coherent strategy out of those words, despite knowing what all of them mean. Seems like at the least it is written with way more confidence than could possibly be appropriate.

cpeterso 8y ago
Perhaps Microsoft developers, with access to Windows' source code, can better optimize Google's upstream Chromium on Windows for the benefit of Electron apps using Google's Chromium? Otherwise, porting Edge to Chromium isn't going to anything for Electron apps.
TimTheTinker 8y ago
I think it's referring to Microsoft's own Electron-powered apps, like VSCode. There have been rumblings in the past about MS wanting to fork Electron and replace Chromium with EdgeHTML in their fork, but it sounds like the strategy has changed to forking Chromium and using that in their future Electron fork instead. I have no idea if this correctly interprets the SwiftOnSecurity tweet, but that's the best I can make of it.
- cjbprime 8y ago
  That sounds fine, it just sounds unrelated to a decision to kill off Edge. You can maintain Edge as a web browser while using Chromium Electron. If you're Microsoft, your decision on whether or not to maintain Edge as a web engine is unlikely to completely pivotally depend upon whether you end up choosing Chromium Electron or Edge Electron. So the tweet doesn't make sense to me.
- cozuya 8y ago
  Off topic but I'll be that guy: I am continually blown away by just how good VSCode is and how it very much overcame two huge obstacles: being an election app, and its poisonous name.
  - manigandham 8y ago

c-smile 8y ago

I had that suspicion too when looking on how much resources they put into Visual Code editor.

morpheuskafka 8y ago

I don't even see why it would have to be a full fork, could just be a drop-in replacement for whatever npm modules builds them into Windows installers/EXEs. But it would definitely make sense. It would be another great way for MS to emphasize cross-platform, because the Linux/Mac support would already be there and be left completely alone.

arendtio 8y ago

That makes sense. I might sound a little absurd at first, but recently I came across the documentation about submitting PWAs to the Microsoft Store [1], which completes the idea that Microsoft wants to embrace apps built with web technologies. After all, Electron apps are just the makeshift solution until we have all required APIs available within the browser(s). [1]: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/progressive-web-apps/microsoft-store https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-edge/progressive-...