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I think your article just confirms that Israel does indeed regularly employ deadly force against civilians. Most other countries manage just fine without doing

I think your article just confirms that Israel does indeed regularly employ deadly force against civilians. Most other countries manage just fine without doing so.

ars 8y ago
I'm sure you are not implying they do so on purpose. Israel does better than anyone else in the world at minimizing civilian causalities, but accidents are a fact of war. So, what other options does Israel have? Let the combatants do whatever they want? Are you seriously implying someone should not work for the Israeli military because of civilian accidents? What's your endgame here? Israel should give up and let millions of people be murdered? abalone has a severely skewed moral filter to say "this does not absolve NSO's software engineers from moral culpability" - he would rather millions of Israeli citizens get murdered? I really hope you are not in any way agreeing with him because it is a truly loathsome thing to say, and I was absolutely shocked to see someone just causally speak like that. The only moral thing to do here is do an even better job at this type of software to make the civilian casualty ratio even better.
- cazum 8y ago
  >Israel does better than anyone else in the world at minimizing civilian causalities, but accidents are a fact of war. Israel regularly shoots and kills unarmed civilians for standing too close to a fence. >So, what other options does Israel have? Let the combatants do whatever they want? They are unarmed civilians, standing near a fence. >Are you seriously implying someone should not work for the Israeli military because of civilian accidents? Yes, one should not involve themselves in a violent force that regularly murders civilians for standing too close to a fence. >What's your endgame here? Israel should give up and let millions of people be murdered? They can start by not murdering the desperate civilians protesting the blockade and destruction of their homes by standing too close to a fence. >he would rather millions of Israeli citizens get murdered? Millions of Israelis are not at risk of being murdered by the unarmed civilians standing near fences. >The only moral thing to do here is do an even better job at this type of software to make the civilian casualty ratio even better. The most moral thing to do would be to pressure Israel to stop murdering civilians for standing too near a fence.
  - ars 8y ago
    You mean these civilians https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/9xla6y/israeli_soldier_removed_flag_with_an_ied_planted/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/9xla6y/israe... who just wanted a flag near the fence? Or maybe these https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/959z60/hamas_militants_fire_at_idf_forces_on_the_gaza/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/959z60/hamas... ? This "story" that they were a bunch of unarmed civilians near a fence is completely fictional. It was actually a bunch of combatants mixed in with civilians, and Israel worked very hard to be selective. The accidents are terrible, no doubt about it, but no other army in the history of war has done better.
    - ryanlol 8y ago
      It's weird how both of the videos you show in defense of civilian deaths caused by Israel involve Israeli military being attacked. If there were no attacks on civilians, that certainly makes you wonder if they could've avoided conflict by simply not sending their troops there.
      - ars 8y ago
        > If there were no attacks on civilians, that certainly makes you wonder if they could've avoided conflict by simply not sending their troops there. And then Hamas agents would breach the fence and enter Israel. And you think that's a good idea, why exactly?
    - cazum 8y ago
      Both of your links involve armed combatants fighting IDF. nobody is calling those people civilians. I'm calling these people civilians: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/video-shows-16-year-old-gazan-shot-by-israeli-soldiers-while-waving-hands-1.6463970 https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-video-shows-palestinian-shot-by-israeli-sniper-to-sound-of-cheers-1.5988677 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-video-shows-pal... https://mobile.twitter.com/dcipalestine/status/1017882226275434497 https://mobile.twitter.com/dcipalestine/status/1017882226275...
- ryanlol 8y ago
  How many civilians has comparably sized Sweden killed in the past 30 years?
  - ars 8y ago
    This is an excellent plan. Convince all the Arab countries around Israel not to try to exterminate it, and thereby Israel will become like Sweden and not need to fight. That first step is a bit hard, but I assume you have some plan for that, considering it was your idea?
    - ryanlol 8y ago
      How come nobody seems to want to exterminate Sweden? What's so special about Israel that they need to kill vast amounts of civilians to not get exterminated?
      - ars 8y ago
        > that they need to kill vast amounts of civilians Neither Israel nor Sweden kill vast amount of civilians. The fact that you write that is very concerning. And the fact that you think it's Israel's fault that Arabs want to exterminate it is just ......... I don't even know what to write to someone like you.
        ionised 8y ago
        Usually when someone says something you don't like or disagree with, you counter with an argument of your own. If you can't think of anything to say in response, might I suggest that you either don't know the subject as well as you think, or you know the person you are arguing with is right and you have no retort.
    - fit2rule 8y ago
      Actually, the plan would be - make Israel more like Sweden. That way its neighbours actually enjoy their presence in the region. But, as long as Israelis continue to justify the wanton murder of civilians as their 'right as Israelis', then there will be calls for the destruction of their state. Whether this is moral or not, is as yet undecided...

I think your article just confirms that Israel does indeed regularly employ deadly force against civilians. Most other countries manage just fine without doing so.

ars 8y ago

I'm sure you are not implying they do so on purpose. Israel does better than anyone else in the world at minimizing civilian causalities, but accidents are a fact of war. So, what other options does Israel have? Let the combatants do whatever they want? Are you seriously implying someone should not work for the Israeli military because of civilian accidents? What's your endgame here? Israel should give up and let millions of people be murdered? abalone has a severely skewed moral filter to say "this does not absolve NSO's software engineers from moral culpability" - he would rather millions of Israeli citizens get murdered? I really hope you are not in any way agreeing with him because it is a truly loathsome thing to say, and I was absolutely shocked to see someone just causally speak like that. The only moral thing to do here is do an even better job at this type of software to make the civilian casualty ratio even better.

cazum 8y ago
>Israel does better than anyone else in the world at minimizing civilian causalities, but accidents are a fact of war. Israel regularly shoots and kills unarmed civilians for standing too close to a fence. >So, what other options does Israel have? Let the combatants do whatever they want? They are unarmed civilians, standing near a fence. >Are you seriously implying someone should not work for the Israeli military because of civilian accidents? Yes, one should not involve themselves in a violent force that regularly murders civilians for standing too close to a fence. >What's your endgame here? Israel should give up and let millions of people be murdered? They can start by not murdering the desperate civilians protesting the blockade and destruction of their homes by standing too close to a fence. >he would rather millions of Israeli citizens get murdered? Millions of Israelis are not at risk of being murdered by the unarmed civilians standing near fences. >The only moral thing to do here is do an even better job at this type of software to make the civilian casualty ratio even better. The most moral thing to do would be to pressure Israel to stop murdering civilians for standing too near a fence.
- ars 8y ago
  You mean these civilians https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/9xla6y/israeli_soldier_removed_flag_with_an_ied_planted/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/9xla6y/israe... who just wanted a flag near the fence? Or maybe these https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/959z60/hamas_militants_fire_at_idf_forces_on_the_gaza/ https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/959z60/hamas... ? This "story" that they were a bunch of unarmed civilians near a fence is completely fictional. It was actually a bunch of combatants mixed in with civilians, and Israel worked very hard to be selective. The accidents are terrible, no doubt about it, but no other army in the history of war has done better.
  - ryanlol 8y ago
    It's weird how both of the videos you show in defense of civilian deaths caused by Israel involve Israeli military being attacked. If there were no attacks on civilians, that certainly makes you wonder if they could've avoided conflict by simply not sending their troops there.
    - ars 8y ago
      > If there were no attacks on civilians, that certainly makes you wonder if they could've avoided conflict by simply not sending their troops there. And then Hamas agents would breach the fence and enter Israel. And you think that's a good idea, why exactly?
  - cazum 8y ago
    Both of your links involve armed combatants fighting IDF. nobody is calling those people civilians. I'm calling these people civilians: https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/video-shows-16-year-old-gazan-shot-by-israeli-soldiers-while-waving-hands-1.6463970 https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news/... https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-video-shows-palestinian-shot-by-israeli-sniper-to-sound-of-cheers-1.5988677 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-video-shows-pal... https://mobile.twitter.com/dcipalestine/status/1017882226275434497 https://mobile.twitter.com/dcipalestine/status/1017882226275...
ryanlol 8y ago
How many civilians has comparably sized Sweden killed in the past 30 years?
- ars 8y ago
  This is an excellent plan. Convince all the Arab countries around Israel not to try to exterminate it, and thereby Israel will become like Sweden and not need to fight. That first step is a bit hard, but I assume you have some plan for that, considering it was your idea?
  - ryanlol 8y ago
    How come nobody seems to want to exterminate Sweden? What's so special about Israel that they need to kill vast amounts of civilians to not get exterminated?
    - ars 8y ago
      > that they need to kill vast amounts of civilians Neither Israel nor Sweden kill vast amount of civilians. The fact that you write that is very concerning. And the fact that you think it's Israel's fault that Arabs want to exterminate it is just ......... I don't even know what to write to someone like you.
      - ionised 8y ago
        Usually when someone says something you don't like or disagree with, you counter with an argument of your own. If you can't think of anything to say in response, might I suggest that you either don't know the subject as well as you think, or you know the person you are arguing with is right and you have no retort.
  - fit2rule 8y ago
    Actually, the plan would be - make Israel more like Sweden. That way its neighbours actually enjoy their presence in the region. But, as long as Israelis continue to justify the wanton murder of civilians as their 'right as Israelis', then there will be calls for the destruction of their state. Whether this is moral or not, is as yet undecided...