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Being visually nearly indistinguishable from chrome hasn't really worked in its favor. (quick, which is which: http://9ol.es/double-browser.png http://9ol.es/do

Being visually nearly indistinguishable from chrome hasn't really worked in its favor. (quick, which is which: http://9ol.es/double-browser.png http://9ol.es/double-browser.png). Probably north of 95% don't know about or understand licensing differences or differences in rendering engines or core architecture. Interfaces and obvious features with compelling narratives are what matter because that's how the user engages with the product. Asking users to go out of their way to install and use something that looks and feels identical to what they already have for reasons most people don't know, understand, or deeply care about and do not get surfaced in any meaningful way is not a winning strategy. A case has to be made in the battle of perception and the decreasingly small visual differentiation hasn't helped build it. Al Ries's laws of marketing and branding and Donald Norman's models of differentiation apply equally to all products regardless of the economic and institutional structure that builds them.

saagarjha 8y ago
> Transforming itself to be visually nearly indistinguishable from chrome hasn't really worked in its favor. Chrome changed its style more recently and ended up being more similar to Firefox.
- kristopolous 8y ago
  Is that the timeline here? In that case it was Chrome using its market position cleverly and Firefox not responding adequately. I can only speak for linux interfaces btw. Small "bullshit" interface changes can have dramatic user and marketshare impact. We can all sit around and wish the world didn't work this way but it's not going to change.
  - Groxx 8y ago
    Firefox has alternatively had closer-to-curved-rects or boxy tabs for practically its whole lifetime. Chrome went heavy on diagonal-edged tabs early on, and relatively recently they've been undoing that. they're even mimicking Firefox's scrollable tab-bar since it's such an obvious win over a million super-narrow tabs that you can't possibly identify.
    - Semaphor 8y ago
      > they're even mimicking Firefox's scrollable tab-bar since it's such an obvious win over a million super-narrow tabs that you can't possibly identify. The non-scrollable tabs are what I miss most about Chrome. I know I'm not in a majority there, but I wouldn't call it an obvious win.
      - Groxx 8y ago
        about:config has `browser.tabs.tabMinWidth` :) just set it to 0. Though I firmly believe that about:config is in no way a user-viable option (as useful as it can be, for dev purposes), so I don't intend to imply that means "firefox has that too". It doesn't, it just has a workaround.
        Semaphor 8y ago
        Thanks, but I know about the about:config string. Especially with very low values, it had some weird behavior last time I tried it.
        Groxx 8y ago
        yea, doesn't really surprise me. most about:config is pretty hit or miss. out of curiosity tho: was that before the UI overhaul (i.e. have you done it since it became HTML+CSS instead of XUL)? personally I'm loving Tree Style Tab, so I don't really pay attention to the tabbar any more.
        Semaphor 8y ago
        I only started using FF after some bigger release this year, it was too slow for me before. And good point about Tree Tabs. I've been wanting to try it for a while, might as well do it now :)
  - Sylos 8y ago
    It was within a month or so after the official release of Firefox's new theme that it became publicly known that Chrome was working on a new theme, too. So, there was no way they could have adequately responded to that. You just can't rebrand twice within a year.
ngokevin 8y ago
I'd kinda agree. As described in Zero to One, to convince shift users to adopt, you need a product that is an order of magnitude superior to the incumbent. Incremental changes or parity mostly won't cut it. A browser would have to be radically innovative or better to gain share which is difficult considering the services Google has hooked into it.
- kristopolous 8y ago
  Mozilla did this (below) once, about 15 years ago when knocking IE from it's 95+% 2004 marketshare, they need to find a way to do it again: “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” - R. Buckminster Fuller
  - ngokevin 8y ago
    It was quite a bit different then. IE was in the "first mover" batch. Chrome is the "last mover". It was easy to knock out the first mover as things had stalled yet there was still lots of innovation to be done. But browsers have since commoditized, and the door for differentiation has closed. Especially as browsers inherently need to match each other through web standards. I don't see a way for 2D browsers to rise up against Chrome. Firefox, after hundreds of millions of dollars over the last several years, hasn't made radical changes. Personally, I'm chasing VR and AR to be the new wave of the Web, where browsing experience will be heavily differentiated.
    - kristopolous 8y ago
      Netscape Navigator had substantially beat IE as a first-mover in the market and the mind. IE wasn't a first-mover, it was bundled with the computer, it won as the most available, just like Starbucks vs. Coffee Bean - later comers can be assumed as more readily available then their perceived equivalencies. Firefox broke through by shattering the consumer's perception of equivalence. The door for differentiation in the same way as before has closed, but not for differentiation in other ways that people immediately perceive. Lacking a prescriptive direction that Mozilla Inc should take to establish this doesn't invalidate the observation, you can describe an illness without knowing the cure.
bscphil 8y ago
It's more than just visually indistinguishable; historically a big chunk of the Firefox user base have been (a) power users, and (b) people who listen to power users for computer advice. When this becomes necessary you know you've lost your power user audience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589555 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589555
- dralley 8y ago
  Power users ceased being particularly important or influential in the early 2010s. Computers have gotten easier for an average person to use and maintain without needing to be de-wormed every 4 months, all browsers are "good enough" unlike the times if IE6, Google's brand is ridiculously powerful and is further able to push Chrome via Android preinstall.

saagarjha 8y ago

> Transforming itself to be visually nearly indistinguishable from chrome hasn't really worked in its favor. Chrome changed its style more recently and ended up being more similar to Firefox.

kristopolous 8y ago
Is that the timeline here? In that case it was Chrome using its market position cleverly and Firefox not responding adequately. I can only speak for linux interfaces btw. Small "bullshit" interface changes can have dramatic user and marketshare impact. We can all sit around and wish the world didn't work this way but it's not going to change.
- Groxx 8y ago
  Firefox has alternatively had closer-to-curved-rects or boxy tabs for practically its whole lifetime. Chrome went heavy on diagonal-edged tabs early on, and relatively recently they've been undoing that. they're even mimicking Firefox's scrollable tab-bar since it's such an obvious win over a million super-narrow tabs that you can't possibly identify.
  - Semaphor 8y ago
    > they're even mimicking Firefox's scrollable tab-bar since it's such an obvious win over a million super-narrow tabs that you can't possibly identify. The non-scrollable tabs are what I miss most about Chrome. I know I'm not in a majority there, but I wouldn't call it an obvious win.
    - Groxx 8y ago
      about:config has `browser.tabs.tabMinWidth` :) just set it to 0. Though I firmly believe that about:config is in no way a user-viable option (as useful as it can be, for dev purposes), so I don't intend to imply that means "firefox has that too". It doesn't, it just has a workaround.
      - Semaphor 8y ago
        Thanks, but I know about the about:config string. Especially with very low values, it had some weird behavior last time I tried it.
        Groxx 8y ago
        yea, doesn't really surprise me. most about:config is pretty hit or miss. out of curiosity tho: was that before the UI overhaul (i.e. have you done it since it became HTML+CSS instead of XUL)? personally I'm loving Tree Style Tab, so I don't really pay attention to the tabbar any more.
        Semaphor 8y ago
        I only started using FF after some bigger release this year, it was too slow for me before. And good point about Tree Tabs. I've been wanting to try it for a while, might as well do it now :)
- Sylos 8y ago
  It was within a month or so after the official release of Firefox's new theme that it became publicly known that Chrome was working on a new theme, too. So, there was no way they could have adequately responded to that. You just can't rebrand twice within a year.

ngokevin 8y ago

I'd kinda agree. As described in Zero to One, to convince shift users to adopt, you need a product that is an order of magnitude superior to the incumbent. Incremental changes or parity mostly won't cut it. A browser would have to be radically innovative or better to gain share which is difficult considering the services Google has hooked into it.

kristopolous 8y ago
Mozilla did this (below) once, about 15 years ago when knocking IE from it's 95+% 2004 marketshare, they need to find a way to do it again: “You never change things by fighting the existing reality. To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.” - R. Buckminster Fuller
- ngokevin 8y ago
  It was quite a bit different then. IE was in the "first mover" batch. Chrome is the "last mover". It was easy to knock out the first mover as things had stalled yet there was still lots of innovation to be done. But browsers have since commoditized, and the door for differentiation has closed. Especially as browsers inherently need to match each other through web standards. I don't see a way for 2D browsers to rise up against Chrome. Firefox, after hundreds of millions of dollars over the last several years, hasn't made radical changes. Personally, I'm chasing VR and AR to be the new wave of the Web, where browsing experience will be heavily differentiated.
  - kristopolous 8y ago
    Netscape Navigator had substantially beat IE as a first-mover in the market and the mind. IE wasn't a first-mover, it was bundled with the computer, it won as the most available, just like Starbucks vs. Coffee Bean - later comers can be assumed as more readily available then their perceived equivalencies. Firefox broke through by shattering the consumer's perception of equivalence. The door for differentiation in the same way as before has closed, but not for differentiation in other ways that people immediately perceive. Lacking a prescriptive direction that Mozilla Inc should take to establish this doesn't invalidate the observation, you can describe an illness without knowing the cure.

bscphil 8y ago

It's more than just visually indistinguishable; historically a big chunk of the Firefox user base have been (a) power users, and (b) people who listen to power users for computer advice. When this becomes necessary you know you've lost your power user audience: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589555 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589555

dralley 8y ago
Power users ceased being particularly important or influential in the early 2010s. Computers have gotten easier for an average person to use and maintain without needing to be de-wormed every 4 months, all browsers are "good enough" unlike the times if IE6, Google's brand is ridiculously powerful and is further able to push Chrome via Android preinstall.