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When discussing project Dragonfly there are two perspectives: 1. what's good for China's citizens 2. what's good for the rest of the world You must keep this

When discussing project Dragonfly there are two perspectives: 1. what's good for China's citizens 2. what's good for the rest of the world You must keep this in mind. For China's citizens it's undeniably good for Google to be there, because Baidu lacks competition and I hear that it sucks. Having a good search engine is important for education. For the rest of the world, Google being there is backpedaling on their core values and we're then in danger for one of the world's most powerful and dangerous software companies to succumb to Chinese demands, because of money, which can affect all of us. I would prefer for Google to not go to China. I'm a privacy fanatic and a liberal, so I don't want the Chinese administration to further destabilize our liberal democracy, which is already too fragile these days. But if there's an uproar, let's not do double standards. Google isn't a special snowflake. I want the same outrage for Microsoft or Apple or other big software companies that sell products and services in China. Because they aren't much less dangerous and prone to succumb to Chinese demands. But that's a personal opinion. Maybe having these multi-nationals pull out of China would be a net loss for the whole world. Who knows. And having some Chinese acquaintances, I certainly don't wish for them a lower quality of life.

TACIXAT 8y ago
>Our mission is to organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful. Even if that mission is constrained in China, I think it will provide huge value to Chinese citizens and the rest of the world. As an American I would love a well-indexed Chinese internet. I don't believe that Google not going into China will at all change Chinese politics. The Chinese government doesn't want Google's capabilities that badly that they would make policy changes in order to appease the employees preventing it. On the other hand, Google going into China could very well influence culture over time.
- deleted 8y ago
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kelnos 8y ago
> For China's citizens it's undeniably good for Google to be there, because Baidu lacks competition and I hear that it sucks. In the short term, maybe that's true. But longer term, it just makes Chinese citizens even more comfortable with censorship. If all sources of information in China sucked, and citizens knew about it, they'd be more likely to protest or push for change. If non-Chinese entities decided to keep or move business elsewhere due to human rights and censorship concerns, the Chinese government would eventually have to change. They might be an economic powerhouse now, but being cut off from the rest of the world makes that position untenable.
- bad_user 8y ago
  > If all sources of information in China sucked, and citizens knew about it. This is wishful thinking. The People's Republic of China was founded in 1949. 70 years later communism still sucks, yet in China it endures. Being born in an ex-communist country from the Warsaw pact I can tell you ... the only reason USSR fell was because of hunger. Without hunger, which is a primal instinct, human beings can adapt to everything else. In other words, for as long as China's economy is strong, their political system has virtually no opposition, censorship is part of politics and this isn't an issue that the population can vote for. China blocks Internet sources that aren't filtered via their firewall. China also blocks many VPN services. They also use tactics like making foreign online services unbearably slow. That Google is or isn't doing business in China has absolutely no consequence on the Chinese' ability to search for unfiltered information. > If all sources of information in China sucked The problem that you're not seeing is that in order to assess whether something sucks or not, you have to have an alternative to compare it with. In absence of an alternative, this scenario will not happen. So while I agree that Google shouldn't go to China, because it would be against our interest for obvious reasons, trying to frame it as not being in the interest of the Chinese people is wrong, possibly dishonest.

TACIXAT 8y ago

>Our mission is to organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful. Even if that mission is constrained in China, I think it will provide huge value to Chinese citizens and the rest of the world. As an American I would love a well-indexed Chinese internet. I don't believe that Google not going into China will at all change Chinese politics. The Chinese government doesn't want Google's capabilities that badly that they would make policy changes in order to appease the employees preventing it. On the other hand, Google going into China could very well influence culture over time.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

kelnos 8y ago

> For China's citizens it's undeniably good for Google to be there, because Baidu lacks competition and I hear that it sucks. In the short term, maybe that's true. But longer term, it just makes Chinese citizens even more comfortable with censorship. If all sources of information in China sucked, and citizens knew about it, they'd be more likely to protest or push for change. If non-Chinese entities decided to keep or move business elsewhere due to human rights and censorship concerns, the Chinese government would eventually have to change. They might be an economic powerhouse now, but being cut off from the rest of the world makes that position untenable.

bad_user 8y ago
> If all sources of information in China sucked, and citizens knew about it. This is wishful thinking. The People's Republic of China was founded in 1949. 70 years later communism still sucks, yet in China it endures. Being born in an ex-communist country from the Warsaw pact I can tell you ... the only reason USSR fell was because of hunger. Without hunger, which is a primal instinct, human beings can adapt to everything else. In other words, for as long as China's economy is strong, their political system has virtually no opposition, censorship is part of politics and this isn't an issue that the population can vote for. China blocks Internet sources that aren't filtered via their firewall. China also blocks many VPN services. They also use tactics like making foreign online services unbearably slow. That Google is or isn't doing business in China has absolutely no consequence on the Chinese' ability to search for unfiltered information. > If all sources of information in China sucked The problem that you're not seeing is that in order to assess whether something sucks or not, you have to have an alternative to compare it with. In absence of an alternative, this scenario will not happen. So while I agree that Google shouldn't go to China, because it would be against our interest for obvious reasons, trying to frame it as not being in the interest of the Chinese people is wrong, possibly dishonest.