8 ms·

Man, 69, loses legal battle against temporal reality in effort to become 49

36 points by ilamont 8y ago

LinuxBender 8y ago
If he looks as young as he feels, then he doesn't need to legally change his age to say he is 49 on Tinder.
- mikelyons 8y ago
  That's a violation of the terms of service.
  - LinuxBender 8y ago
    Probably so. Do most people on Tinder abide by the ToS? If he looks 49, who is going to report him for a violation? If someone does report him, how hard is it to make a new account?
    - mikelyons 8y ago
      It's also a violation of Facebook's ToS
      - LinuxBender 8y ago
        Is the ToS a binding and enforceable contract in your country?
prossercj 8y ago
This made me laugh, but unless I'm mistaken, he's quite serious. Luckily, however, > An Arnhem court ruled in favor of the fourth dimension.
- ASalazarMX 8y ago
  I wonder if he'll be remembered as a visionary of the age dysphoria trend: "I was born 69 years ago and identify as myself born 49 years ago."
schappim 8y ago
For a second I thought I was reading The Onion. I do however like the philosophical nature of the question: If people can change their gender based on they feel, why can’t they change their age?
- EpicEng 8y ago
  Because neither of them actually work that way?
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  You're right. The answer to that is that people should not be able to change their gender--unless something gets invented that can change your chromosomes--but if they can then age and race should be allowed, too. If anything, because by changing gender you can get all sort of advantages if you become a woman: - tax cuts if you start a company - retire earlier - you win at sport competitions - about 1000 other things If I feel like [insert minority], why can't I change my race and get the same benefits? If we have to be abandon common sense, we should be coherent.
  - kennywinker 8y ago
    > unless something gets invented that can change your chromosomes Let me preent two arguments against that line of thinking: - people born with chromasomal oddities such as XXY or XYY, asked to fit in box XY or XX, they do not fit. Do we need a separate gender for all possible chromosomal configurations? There are more than you might expect. - while you can’t change your chromosomes, you can change how people percieve you in the world. Is gender (as in drivers license m or f) actually supposed to represent your chromosomal configuration - or is it there to match up with how you are percieved? Last thing: you point to advantages of being female. While I’d argue that those advantages don’t exist because being female come with disadvantages that balance things out, but even if they did, the cost of changing your entire identity makes them unappealing. I find it hard to believe we’d see any significant number of people doing anything like this.
- tdb7893 8y ago
  "Gender" is a social construct but while "old" or "young" is a social construct "69 years old" isn't really.
nkkollaw 8y ago
I don't see why one can change sex, but not change age, race, etc.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  Because words have meaning and none of those things are arbitrary.
  - nkkollaw 8y ago
    Why, is gender arbitrary? There are albino blacks, blonde latinos, etc.
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      Sure there are, and all of those things are determined by biology, not choice. That said, this is a topic that could go off the rails and sideways very quickly...
    - happytoexplain 8y ago
      It's my (extremely outside) understanding that the concepts of physical/genetic/choose-something-objective gender are not what people mean in these conversations - nor are they referring to the subjective identity of what kinds of people one feels sexually attracted to. They are referring to a third thing, also subjective, best described as "what gender you feel like", which is very much like how old or young you feel, except much more closely related to one's identity (I "feel" young, which is great, but I also "feel" male, which is more than great - it's critically important to my self identity). So, both of these things (age and gender) have subjective and objectives measures - the difference is that "years old", which term the law uses, is patently objective both legally and linguistically, whereas on the other hand "male/female/etc", which terms the law also uses, is less objective linguistically (as described above), and therefore there is at least one basis on which you could argue for a legal change of gender - a basis that does not exist for a change-of-age argument.
      - 8y ago
maerF0x0 8y ago
This brings up a valid point about health technology and "biological age". As (usually wealthy) people are increasingly able to delay the onset of senescence, the law is going to have issues with time defined "age" which represents capability. For example having to retest every 5 years maybe unneeded if people are living to 125 and remaining healthy along the way.
- o_____________o 8y ago
  Agree and was thinking that in the future, this snarky article will seem in poor taste, representing a time when fixed identity began unspooling.
excalibur 8y ago
> Time is a constant. Verifiably false, but pedantic.
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  Scientists can prove someone's gender by looking at his/her chromosomes, can't they (if you take exceptions, there are people born with 4 arms, or even 2 heads: was a new species created, or it's just very rare exceptions?)..? If you abandon common sense and gender is a construct, race and age should be a construct, or however you want to call it, people should be able to change it.
  - ArchTypical 8y ago
    > Scientists can prove someone's gender by looking at his/her chromosomes, can't they? Only in the vast majority of cases. There are XX, XY, YY, XXY, and even more esoteric versions!
  - eridius 8y ago
    No they can't. Gender is a social construct. But they can't tell that for physiological sex either. Humans have a whole host of secondary sexual characteristics, most of which are more important than genitals in determining how other people categorize them. But even ignoring all of that, chromosomes don't strictly determine what sex characteristics someone ends up with. AIUI a lot of this has to do with the presence or absence of a testosterone wash in-utero (which itself is supposed to be determined by chromosomes, but this doesn't always work). There have been documented cases of women with XY chromosomes who not only exhibit all the usual female sexual characteristics, but even have working ovaries and have carried babies to term. In fact, while I don't have it handy, there was a story not that long ago about a woman with XY chromosomes successfully having a baby, and then they discovered that her mother also had XY chromosomes.
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      So the answer is that they in fact can in the _VAST_ majority of cases. An extremely rare exception doesn't negate the rule.
basicplus2 8y ago
He clearly has not thought through the consequences.. eg turns up to pick up rented car.. Goes to bank to arrange a bank loan.. Tries to sell or buy land.. or anything for thar matter.. Tries get on an international flight... Result.. sorry sir there is no way you are 49 years old you have obviously stolen someones identity just wait here while i call the police..
helen___keller 8y ago
This legal battle was really about giving a platform to bigots who want to conflate gender with sex to invalidate transgendered people. Just look in the comments for proof.
mindgam3 8y ago
+1 for Team Reality finally winning one. Feels like we’ve been getting shut out all season. A small victory to be sure but even those are worth celebrating in these dark times.
throwawaywtfvjk 8y ago
people arguing, that temporal reality is absolute. what do you think about daylight savings?

36 points by ilamont 8y ago

LinuxBender 8y ago

If he looks as young as he feels, then he doesn't need to legally change his age to say he is 49 on Tinder.

mikelyons 8y ago
That's a violation of the terms of service.
- LinuxBender 8y ago
  Probably so. Do most people on Tinder abide by the ToS? If he looks 49, who is going to report him for a violation? If someone does report him, how hard is it to make a new account?
  - mikelyons 8y ago
    It's also a violation of Facebook's ToS
    - LinuxBender 8y ago
      Is the ToS a binding and enforceable contract in your country?

prossercj 8y ago

This made me laugh, but unless I'm mistaken, he's quite serious. Luckily, however, > An Arnhem court ruled in favor of the fourth dimension.

ASalazarMX 8y ago
I wonder if he'll be remembered as a visionary of the age dysphoria trend: "I was born 69 years ago and identify as myself born 49 years ago."

schappim 8y ago

For a second I thought I was reading The Onion. I do however like the philosophical nature of the question: If people can change their gender based on they feel, why can’t they change their age?

EpicEng 8y ago
Because neither of them actually work that way?
nkkollaw 8y ago
You're right. The answer to that is that people should not be able to change their gender--unless something gets invented that can change your chromosomes--but if they can then age and race should be allowed, too. If anything, because by changing gender you can get all sort of advantages if you become a woman: - tax cuts if you start a company - retire earlier - you win at sport competitions - about 1000 other things If I feel like [insert minority], why can't I change my race and get the same benefits? If we have to be abandon common sense, we should be coherent.
- kennywinker 8y ago
  > unless something gets invented that can change your chromosomes Let me preent two arguments against that line of thinking: - people born with chromasomal oddities such as XXY or XYY, asked to fit in box XY or XX, they do not fit. Do we need a separate gender for all possible chromosomal configurations? There are more than you might expect. - while you can’t change your chromosomes, you can change how people percieve you in the world. Is gender (as in drivers license m or f) actually supposed to represent your chromosomal configuration - or is it there to match up with how you are percieved? Last thing: you point to advantages of being female. While I’d argue that those advantages don’t exist because being female come with disadvantages that balance things out, but even if they did, the cost of changing your entire identity makes them unappealing. I find it hard to believe we’d see any significant number of people doing anything like this.
tdb7893 8y ago
"Gender" is a social construct but while "old" or "young" is a social construct "69 years old" isn't really.

nkkollaw 8y ago

I don't see why one can change sex, but not change age, race, etc.

EpicEng 8y ago
Because words have meaning and none of those things are arbitrary.
- nkkollaw 8y ago
  Why, is gender arbitrary? There are albino blacks, blonde latinos, etc.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    Sure there are, and all of those things are determined by biology, not choice. That said, this is a topic that could go off the rails and sideways very quickly...
  - happytoexplain 8y ago
    It's my (extremely outside) understanding that the concepts of physical/genetic/choose-something-objective gender are not what people mean in these conversations - nor are they referring to the subjective identity of what kinds of people one feels sexually attracted to. They are referring to a third thing, also subjective, best described as "what gender you feel like", which is very much like how old or young you feel, except much more closely related to one's identity (I "feel" young, which is great, but I also "feel" male, which is more than great - it's critically important to my self identity). So, both of these things (age and gender) have subjective and objectives measures - the difference is that "years old", which term the law uses, is patently objective both legally and linguistically, whereas on the other hand "male/female/etc", which terms the law also uses, is less objective linguistically (as described above), and therefore there is at least one basis on which you could argue for a legal change of gender - a basis that does not exist for a change-of-age argument.
    - 8y ago

maerF0x0 8y ago

This brings up a valid point about health technology and "biological age". As (usually wealthy) people are increasingly able to delay the onset of senescence, the law is going to have issues with time defined "age" which represents capability. For example having to retest every 5 years maybe unneeded if people are living to 125 and remaining healthy along the way.

o_____________o 8y ago
Agree and was thinking that in the future, this snarky article will seem in poor taste, representing a time when fixed identity began unspooling.

excalibur 8y ago

> Time is a constant. Verifiably false, but pedantic.

nkkollaw 8y ago
Scientists can prove someone's gender by looking at his/her chromosomes, can't they (if you take exceptions, there are people born with 4 arms, or even 2 heads: was a new species created, or it's just very rare exceptions?)..? If you abandon common sense and gender is a construct, race and age should be a construct, or however you want to call it, people should be able to change it.
- ArchTypical 8y ago
  > Scientists can prove someone's gender by looking at his/her chromosomes, can't they? Only in the vast majority of cases. There are XX, XY, YY, XXY, and even more esoteric versions!
- eridius 8y ago
  No they can't. Gender is a social construct. But they can't tell that for physiological sex either. Humans have a whole host of secondary sexual characteristics, most of which are more important than genitals in determining how other people categorize them. But even ignoring all of that, chromosomes don't strictly determine what sex characteristics someone ends up with. AIUI a lot of this has to do with the presence or absence of a testosterone wash in-utero (which itself is supposed to be determined by chromosomes, but this doesn't always work). There have been documented cases of women with XY chromosomes who not only exhibit all the usual female sexual characteristics, but even have working ovaries and have carried babies to term. In fact, while I don't have it handy, there was a story not that long ago about a woman with XY chromosomes successfully having a baby, and then they discovered that her mother also had XY chromosomes.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    So the answer is that they in fact can in the _VAST_ majority of cases. An extremely rare exception doesn't negate the rule.

basicplus2 8y ago

He clearly has not thought through the consequences.. eg turns up to pick up rented car.. Goes to bank to arrange a bank loan.. Tries to sell or buy land.. or anything for thar matter.. Tries get on an international flight... Result.. sorry sir there is no way you are 49 years old you have obviously stolen someones identity just wait here while i call the police..

helen___keller 8y ago

This legal battle was really about giving a platform to bigots who want to conflate gender with sex to invalidate transgendered people. Just look in the comments for proof.

mindgam3 8y ago

+1 for Team Reality finally winning one. Feels like we’ve been getting shut out all season. A small victory to be sure but even those are worth celebrating in these dark times.

throwawaywtfvjk 8y ago

people arguing, that temporal reality is absolute. what do you think about daylight savings?