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Or alternatively, the employees have reasoned through the benefits and potential negatives of doing business in mainland China and have concluded that the benef

Or alternatively, the employees have reasoned through the benefits and potential negatives of doing business in mainland China and have concluded that the benefits outweigh the negatives. How, exactly, does Dragonfly make the world a worse place? Sure, I'm opposed to censorship or policing citizens' interests. But there's no real indication that the censorship or surveillance is any worse than the existing search engines present in China. As far as that front is concerned, Google in China would be no worse than the status quo. The potential benefits are substantial. Google could be the first big tech player to break into what is usually seen as a walled off market. Over time economic ties could bring the countries closer together, and reduce the likelihood of conflict (this is the original rationale behind the EU, for example). As far a I can see, Dragonfly is not any worse than the status quo, and had potential benefits - and this is speaking from someone who had no incentive to see Google succeed. I don't work there nor do I own any stocks in the company.

fossuser 8y ago
Not worse than the status quo can still be something unethical to be involved in. If a government is currently using software to target, kidnap, and torture journalists and you supply them with new software that basically does the same thing then you're still complicit in the bad behavior. You're still responsible for your actions even if others would be willing to do it if you didn't. In China's case there's also a history of this rationalization that getting involved will help westernize the country, while there's some truth to this with their embrace of capitalism - the government is not trending in a good direction. Eliminating presidential term limits, deep packet inspection, social credit system, total/unrestricted surveillance. Western companies that operate there in a capacity larger than just manufacturing seem to just have their IP stolen and then a Chinese approved local company gets explicit government support. It's important to help citizens of countries where the people are more vulnerable - I'd argue it's irresponsible for a company to help an authoritarian government oppress its own people. It's not a question of whether or not it's legal, something can be legal and still be wrong.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> does Dragonfly make the world a worse place? Yes. It normalizes suppressing political speech that disagrees with the incumbent power. That flies in the face of values democracies hold dear. "Someone else would do it" isn't a valid excuse. If you're doing it, you're complicit. (Also, Google will do it better than almost anyone else. That a respected American technology giant will work with China's censorship regime gives the institution legitimacy.)
- mmmmmmmmm 8y ago
  Microsoft is already doing it. Baidu is already doing it. The practice is already normal.
- Aunche 8y ago
  The difference is that impact of normalizing behavior is completely speculative, but search is a real product that can benefit people. Any business with China normalizes their suppression, but I doubt that the people who oppose Dragonfly have a problem with how many of their parts in their smartphone were sourced from China. Conveniently, Dragonfly doesn't offer anything to Americans, so that just crosses the line of what's "evil."
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Many people would like to see America become less dependent on China's industrial base, maybe even most people.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    > Dragonfly doesn't offer anything to Americans Precedent matters. Google having built a censored search engine for China makes it harder to say "no" to Saudi Arabia, Russia, Poland, France or even the American government. Apple understood this when they refused to build a cracking tool for the San Bernardino shooter's phone.
    - vsl 8y ago
      The same Apple that, also famously, moved iCloud data of all its Chinese customers to servers in mainland China controlled by a Chinese company (and thus, accessible to the government)? It's also worth reminding that Google did exit China in 2010 because of precisely these ethical concerns. Only to watch all of its competitors - Apple included - unscrupulously do business in China. It's no wonder they reconsidered their stance.
Rapzid 8y ago
I would say its in the same vein as an aiding and abetting conviction not being based on the need of the principal offender for that assistance. Just because a communist country doesn't need our help oppressing people doesn't mean we are A-OKAY to assist them with it..
fucking_tragedy 8y ago
> does Dragonfly make the world a worse place? Yes. Read the open letter by Google employees[1]. One of their main concerns is how Dragonfly will be used to put people into political prison camps[2]. From the open letter by Google employees: > Our company’s decision comes as the Chinese government is openly expanding its surveillance powers and tools of population control. Many of these rely on advanced technologies, and combine online activity, personal records, and mass monitoring to track and profile citizens. Reports are already showing who bears the cost, including Uyghurs, women’s rights advocates, and students. Providing the Chinese government with ready access to user data, as required by Chinese law, would make Google complicit in oppression and human rights abuses. [1] https://medium.com/@googlersagainstdragonfly/we-are-google-employees-google-must-drop-dragonfly-4c8a30c5e5eb https://medium.com/@googlersagainstdragonfly/we-are-google-e... [2] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  Could it be that the letter authors are misguided? Google probably has 5000 Chinese national employees. Where are they on the issue? Wouldn't they be in a better position to judge than a bunch of Americans who grew up hearing that our system is the only workable one?
  - fucking_tragedy 8y ago
    > Could it be that the letter authors are misguided? No. China is taking millions of political prisoners and putting them into camps[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...
    - yourbandsucks 8y ago
      You've pivoted away from "what's best for Chinese people" to "how best to oppose China's rise", here. Did you notice that you did that? Was it intentional?
- 8y ago
beginningguava 8y ago
>How, exactly, does Dragonfly make the world a worse place It sets the precedent of Google censoring search results for a government. Once they do it for China you don't think other countries will say "censor these results like you did for China or GTFO"? We've recently seen leaked internal discussions by Google engineers saying they want to ban media publications they don't like. You can say they're a private company but at this point if google bans you, you effectively don't exist online
- brlewis 8y ago
  I admit to not having seen those discussions, but I doubt they show consensus within google that certain publications should be banned. In any group of people there will be some who will say they'd like to ban something, be it Hello Kitty or whatever. Disclaimer: ex-googler
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Does it matter if there's consensus? From everything we know so far, there was no consensus about Dragonfly, but it got built anyway.
  - vermilingua 8y ago
    They don't need to show consensus; they simply need to show (as they have done) that there is some number of bad actors within the company with both the means and motivation to enforce their own bias on the rest of the world.
    - brlewis 8y ago
      The claim I replied to is: "We've recently seen leaked internal discussions by Google engineers saying they want to ban media publications they don't like." Individual engineers did not have the means to ban in 2013 when I was an engineer in Search Features. I seriously doubt that's changed.
- mavhc 8y ago
  If I were Google and a government told me to GTFO I would, leaving a message saying "Leader of Country, call this number when you change your mind", wait 5 mins for everyone to complain to the government, and then answer the phone
hueving 8y ago
Well the country is going to commit genocide anyway. Why not try to sell them the weapons because we make much better weapons and US companies haven't been able to break into their weapons market yet. The potential benefits could be substantial, we could be the first big US weapons manufacturer to break into this regime's market. Over time, economic ties could bring the countries closer together and reduce the likelihood of conflict... Do you see how insane it is to justify something morally repugnant with potential long term economic benefits? The only way your argument works is if you don't care about censorship in the first place. If that's the case, then you need no justification at all because it's just another regular customer.
- guiomie 8y ago
  Isn't that what the US is doing with Saudi Arabia? Gen. McChrystal was making this argument on the Economist podcast. If we sell them the weapons, at least we have some control in the long run, because these type of deals include training, logistics, support...etc. and you leverage these dependencies in future negotiations. Would you rather give this leverage to Russia or China? I think the same might be applicable to this scenario.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - int_19h 8y ago
    What US is doing with Saudi Arabia is a travesty of its own. All that effort we're spending to goad other countries into an Iran embargo should really be a KSA embargo.
int_19h 8y ago
> But there's no real indication that the censorship or surveillance is any worse than the existing search engines present in China. As far as that front is concerned, Google in China would be no worse than the status quo. Just because some evil thing would have happened anyway, with or without your assistance, doesn't absolve you from moral responsibility for that assistance if you offer it.
havetocharge 8y ago
Thank you for presenting an alternative view. What I didn't like about the person you're replying to, is how they made a bunch of assumptions about Google's employees, and their motivations, and passed it on as a fact.

fossuser 8y ago

Not worse than the status quo can still be something unethical to be involved in. If a government is currently using software to target, kidnap, and torture journalists and you supply them with new software that basically does the same thing then you're still complicit in the bad behavior. You're still responsible for your actions even if others would be willing to do it if you didn't. In China's case there's also a history of this rationalization that getting involved will help westernize the country, while there's some truth to this with their embrace of capitalism - the government is not trending in a good direction. Eliminating presidential term limits, deep packet inspection, social credit system, total/unrestricted surveillance. Western companies that operate there in a capacity larger than just manufacturing seem to just have their IP stolen and then a Chinese approved local company gets explicit government support. It's important to help citizens of countries where the people are more vulnerable - I'd argue it's irresponsible for a company to help an authoritarian government oppress its own people. It's not a question of whether or not it's legal, something can be legal and still be wrong.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> does Dragonfly make the world a worse place? Yes. It normalizes suppressing political speech that disagrees with the incumbent power. That flies in the face of values democracies hold dear. "Someone else would do it" isn't a valid excuse. If you're doing it, you're complicit. (Also, Google will do it better than almost anyone else. That a respected American technology giant will work with China's censorship regime gives the institution legitimacy.)

mmmmmmmmm 8y ago
Microsoft is already doing it. Baidu is already doing it. The practice is already normal.
Aunche 8y ago
The difference is that impact of normalizing behavior is completely speculative, but search is a real product that can benefit people. Any business with China normalizes their suppression, but I doubt that the people who oppose Dragonfly have a problem with how many of their parts in their smartphone were sourced from China. Conveniently, Dragonfly doesn't offer anything to Americans, so that just crosses the line of what's "evil."
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Many people would like to see America become less dependent on China's industrial base, maybe even most people.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  > Dragonfly doesn't offer anything to Americans Precedent matters. Google having built a censored search engine for China makes it harder to say "no" to Saudi Arabia, Russia, Poland, France or even the American government. Apple understood this when they refused to build a cracking tool for the San Bernardino shooter's phone.
  - vsl 8y ago
    The same Apple that, also famously, moved iCloud data of all its Chinese customers to servers in mainland China controlled by a Chinese company (and thus, accessible to the government)? It's also worth reminding that Google did exit China in 2010 because of precisely these ethical concerns. Only to watch all of its competitors - Apple included - unscrupulously do business in China. It's no wonder they reconsidered their stance.

Rapzid 8y ago

I would say its in the same vein as an aiding and abetting conviction not being based on the need of the principal offender for that assistance. Just because a communist country doesn't need our help oppressing people doesn't mean we are A-OKAY to assist them with it..

fucking_tragedy 8y ago

> does Dragonfly make the world a worse place? Yes. Read the open letter by Google employees[1]. One of their main concerns is how Dragonfly will be used to put people into political prison camps[2]. From the open letter by Google employees: > Our company’s decision comes as the Chinese government is openly expanding its surveillance powers and tools of population control. Many of these rely on advanced technologies, and combine online activity, personal records, and mass monitoring to track and profile citizens. Reports are already showing who bears the cost, including Uyghurs, women’s rights advocates, and students. Providing the Chinese government with ready access to user data, as required by Chinese law, would make Google complicit in oppression and human rights abuses. [1] https://medium.com/@googlersagainstdragonfly/we-are-google-employees-google-must-drop-dragonfly-4c8a30c5e5eb https://medium.com/@googlersagainstdragonfly/we-are-google-e... [2] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...

yourbandsucks 8y ago
Could it be that the letter authors are misguided? Google probably has 5000 Chinese national employees. Where are they on the issue? Wouldn't they be in a better position to judge than a bunch of Americans who grew up hearing that our system is the only workable one?
- fucking_tragedy 8y ago
  > Could it be that the letter authors are misguided? No. China is taking millions of political prisoners and putting them into camps[1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-camps-china https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...
  - yourbandsucks 8y ago
    You've pivoted away from "what's best for Chinese people" to "how best to oppose China's rise", here. Did you notice that you did that? Was it intentional?
8y ago

beginningguava 8y ago

>How, exactly, does Dragonfly make the world a worse place It sets the precedent of Google censoring search results for a government. Once they do it for China you don't think other countries will say "censor these results like you did for China or GTFO"? We've recently seen leaked internal discussions by Google engineers saying they want to ban media publications they don't like. You can say they're a private company but at this point if google bans you, you effectively don't exist online

brlewis 8y ago
I admit to not having seen those discussions, but I doubt they show consensus within google that certain publications should be banned. In any group of people there will be some who will say they'd like to ban something, be it Hello Kitty or whatever. Disclaimer: ex-googler
- reaperducer 8y ago
  Does it matter if there's consensus? From everything we know so far, there was no consensus about Dragonfly, but it got built anyway.
- vermilingua 8y ago
  They don't need to show consensus; they simply need to show (as they have done) that there is some number of bad actors within the company with both the means and motivation to enforce their own bias on the rest of the world.
  - brlewis 8y ago
    The claim I replied to is: "We've recently seen leaked internal discussions by Google engineers saying they want to ban media publications they don't like." Individual engineers did not have the means to ban in 2013 when I was an engineer in Search Features. I seriously doubt that's changed.
mavhc 8y ago
If I were Google and a government told me to GTFO I would, leaving a message saying "Leader of Country, call this number when you change your mind", wait 5 mins for everyone to complain to the government, and then answer the phone

hueving 8y ago

Well the country is going to commit genocide anyway. Why not try to sell them the weapons because we make much better weapons and US companies haven't been able to break into their weapons market yet. The potential benefits could be substantial, we could be the first big US weapons manufacturer to break into this regime's market. Over time, economic ties could bring the countries closer together and reduce the likelihood of conflict... Do you see how insane it is to justify something morally repugnant with potential long term economic benefits? The only way your argument works is if you don't care about censorship in the first place. If that's the case, then you need no justification at all because it's just another regular customer.

guiomie 8y ago
Isn't that what the US is doing with Saudi Arabia? Gen. McChrystal was making this argument on the Economist podcast. If we sell them the weapons, at least we have some control in the long run, because these type of deals include training, logistics, support...etc. and you leverage these dependencies in future negotiations. Would you rather give this leverage to Russia or China? I think the same might be applicable to this scenario.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- int_19h 8y ago
  What US is doing with Saudi Arabia is a travesty of its own. All that effort we're spending to goad other countries into an Iran embargo should really be a KSA embargo.

int_19h 8y ago

> But there's no real indication that the censorship or surveillance is any worse than the existing search engines present in China. As far as that front is concerned, Google in China would be no worse than the status quo. Just because some evil thing would have happened anyway, with or without your assistance, doesn't absolve you from moral responsibility for that assistance if you offer it.

havetocharge 8y ago

Thank you for presenting an alternative view. What I didn't like about the person you're replying to, is how they made a bunch of assumptions about Google's employees, and their motivations, and passed it on as a fact.