8 ms·

Full disclosure, Chinese expat and non-search Googler here, I don't think that's fair. As with most issues, where you come out depends largely on where you dra

Full disclosure, Chinese expat and non-search Googler here, I don't think that's fair. As with most issues, where you come out depends largely on where you draw the baseline and I don't think it's fair to say that the baseline for Chinese consumers is no censorship or that for no access to Google and no censorship on Google is better than limited access to Google because of censorship. I know I personally would much rather have limited access than no access - especially if there was a search censored disclaimer like before.

randrews 8y ago
It's okay to contribute to their oppression, because they're not used to freedom anyway?
- andromeduck 8y ago
  Perfection is the enemy of progress. I'm not a fan of censorship but you must work with what you have, work at the margins. Crying about it won't do a thing - especially from outside.
kelnos 8y ago
> I know I personally would much rather have limited access than no access Sure, access that makes you (more?) complacent. Give people just enough to keep them from protesting or rioting. Further normalize censorship: if a non-Chinese company is willing to do it, then it must not just be the Chinese government that's bad, or worse, it must mean that censorship overall isn't that bad. If non-Chinese entities take a hard line against censorship -- especially when doing so keeps them out of a lucrative market -- it sends a message. Bowing to pressure is just tacit acknowledgement that bad stuff is ok as long as they get paid.
- mavhc 8y ago
  Is that so bad? Would you rather everyone rioted and collapsed the economy? Is censorship bad?
typomatic 8y ago
The phone numbers are linked to searches. You think people searching for "Chinese government oppression" on Dragonfly are going to have long happy lives? You still think it's better to have "limited access"?
- yourbandsucks 8y ago
  You're responding to a Chinese expat, you know. You're talking about hypotheticals while they know the reality. Maybe ask some real questions instead of rhetorical ones?
  - typomatic 8y ago
    That was a real question, you absolute weirdo. I am just flabbergasted that you and they have such disregard for human life that they consider participation in its oppression to be an intellectual exercise. You are sick.
- andromeduck 8y ago
  I do because I very much doubt this is going to be unique to Google. Again, it depends on where you draw the baseline. I also think its much harder to censor very broad and general set of ideas than specific issues. I think the resulting general improvement in access to information will result in a more educated populace and improved quality of life and people will want more and demand more of their government.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
MichaelSalib 8y ago
That's (maybe) great for folks in China, but what about folks outside? Is the rest of the world really better off if Google can easily be bullied and manipulated by the Chinese government? Once they start taking orders from Beijing about what results to show in China, why shouldn't they take orders about what to show in the US? After all, the Chinese government controls their access to an enormous market worth lots of money. Will we be able to find articles about the concentration camps for Muslims in China after they're operating in China?
- Aunche 8y ago
  > Once they start taking orders from Beijing about what results to show in China, why shouldn't they take orders about what to show in the US? At the end of the day, Google is an American company, and the US won't let that happen. Right now, Chinese companies are given a free monopoly in their home country, which gives them billions of dollars that they can use to purchase foreign companies. China would a much easier time pressuring Tencent and Baidu than Google or Microsoft. This is all implying that China cares about what foreigners think of them, which they don't.
  - gaius 8y ago
    Google is an American company, and the US won't let that happen Ahem https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/05/15/u-s-retailer-gap-apologizes-to-china-over-map-on-t-shirt-that-omits-taiwan-south-china-sea/?utm_term=.5ceb3b09f44f https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/05/15... The price of access to the Chinese market is to parrot the Party line globally.
- username90 8y ago
  > Is the rest of the world really better off if Google can easily be bullied and manipulated by the Chinese government? I think you overestimate the influence they would have, have you noticed Microsoft or Apple getting bullied by the Chinese government? Both companies bends over backwards to please China, if they don't get affected much why would Google?
TearsInTheRain 8y ago
> I know I personally would much rather have limited access than no access I think this is a really weak position that is intolerable to me. Acceptance of oppression will just invite more oppression. In america we have the expression "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" that is very applicable to this situation.
- andromeduck 8y ago
  In america we also have NSLs.

randrews 8y ago

It's okay to contribute to their oppression, because they're not used to freedom anyway?

andromeduck 8y ago
Perfection is the enemy of progress. I'm not a fan of censorship but you must work with what you have, work at the margins. Crying about it won't do a thing - especially from outside.

kelnos 8y ago

> I know I personally would much rather have limited access than no access Sure, access that makes you (more?) complacent. Give people just enough to keep them from protesting or rioting. Further normalize censorship: if a non-Chinese company is willing to do it, then it must not just be the Chinese government that's bad, or worse, it must mean that censorship overall isn't that bad. If non-Chinese entities take a hard line against censorship -- especially when doing so keeps them out of a lucrative market -- it sends a message. Bowing to pressure is just tacit acknowledgement that bad stuff is ok as long as they get paid.

mavhc 8y ago
Is that so bad? Would you rather everyone rioted and collapsed the economy? Is censorship bad?

typomatic 8y ago

The phone numbers are linked to searches. You think people searching for "Chinese government oppression" on Dragonfly are going to have long happy lives? You still think it's better to have "limited access"?

yourbandsucks 8y ago
You're responding to a Chinese expat, you know. You're talking about hypotheticals while they know the reality. Maybe ask some real questions instead of rhetorical ones?
- typomatic 8y ago
  That was a real question, you absolute weirdo. I am just flabbergasted that you and they have such disregard for human life that they consider participation in its oppression to be an intellectual exercise. You are sick.
andromeduck 8y ago
I do because I very much doubt this is going to be unique to Google. Again, it depends on where you draw the baseline. I also think its much harder to censor very broad and general set of ideas than specific issues. I think the resulting general improvement in access to information will result in a more educated populace and improved quality of life and people will want more and demand more of their government.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

MichaelSalib 8y ago

That's (maybe) great for folks in China, but what about folks outside? Is the rest of the world really better off if Google can easily be bullied and manipulated by the Chinese government? Once they start taking orders from Beijing about what results to show in China, why shouldn't they take orders about what to show in the US? After all, the Chinese government controls their access to an enormous market worth lots of money. Will we be able to find articles about the concentration camps for Muslims in China after they're operating in China?

Aunche 8y ago
> Once they start taking orders from Beijing about what results to show in China, why shouldn't they take orders about what to show in the US? At the end of the day, Google is an American company, and the US won't let that happen. Right now, Chinese companies are given a free monopoly in their home country, which gives them billions of dollars that they can use to purchase foreign companies. China would a much easier time pressuring Tencent and Baidu than Google or Microsoft. This is all implying that China cares about what foreigners think of them, which they don't.
- gaius 8y ago
  Google is an American company, and the US won't let that happen Ahem https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/05/15/u-s-retailer-gap-apologizes-to-china-over-map-on-t-shirt-that-omits-taiwan-south-china-sea/?utm_term=.5ceb3b09f44f https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/05/15... The price of access to the Chinese market is to parrot the Party line globally.
username90 8y ago
> Is the rest of the world really better off if Google can easily be bullied and manipulated by the Chinese government? I think you overestimate the influence they would have, have you noticed Microsoft or Apple getting bullied by the Chinese government? Both companies bends over backwards to please China, if they don't get affected much why would Google?

TearsInTheRain 8y ago

> I know I personally would much rather have limited access than no access I think this is a really weak position that is intolerable to me. Acceptance of oppression will just invite more oppression. In america we have the expression "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" that is very applicable to this situation.

andromeduck 8y ago
In america we also have NSLs.