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A union is a mechanism by which a class of people with less power (typically workers) pool together to enforce rules on people with more power (typically employ

by _ah 8y ago

A union is a mechanism by which a class of people with less power (typically workers) pool together to enforce rules on people with more power (typically employers). Right now, software developers have LOTS OF POWER. Companies are constantly courting devs, offering very high salaries, and including incredible perks that simply aren't available in most other industries. Yes, some engineers are exploited, but on average the power lies with the employees. When you think of all the "union overhead": voting on contracts, complying to work rules, occasionally going on strike, there just isn't enough pain to make that worth it. Yes, I might work too much overtime and go on call at bad hours, but I can also leave and get a new job relatively quickly, and get paid a lot to work in a climate-controlled environment with free drinks and food. A real software union will arise if and only if it becomes necessary. If somehow everyone is automated out of a job and the few engineers left feel that their very existence is at risk, and the few employers remaining ruthlessly exploit those engineers for minimal pay and benefits, THEN people will fight back (and a union is one possible strategy for this fight). Until then it's a waste of effort.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
notJim 8y ago
> Right now, software developers have LOTS OF POWER. This is actually not true in my experience. Having a high salary and perks isn't the same as having power. On-call is a perfect example where, AFAIK, it's not the norm to get paid for it (as a developer at least), and if you don't like it, you're free to get a new job. Except the new job will likely have the same policy. There are other work-life examples: for example, I've tried to find a part-time job, and to get jobs to offer me more vacation time in lieu of higher pay. Both of these are more common in countries with strong unions, but I've never been able to get them here.
- stickfigure 8y ago
  Except the new job will likely have the same policy. Nonsense. There are a bazillion software companies out there and most look nothing alike. If on-call is a dealbreaker for you, just ask the right questions and be clear up front. And if you want to work part time, consider contracting.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  If you have a high salary and great perks, how sure are you that you're not being paid for it? You don't need a separate line item on your paycheck to reflect the fact that you're paid to go to team meetings, company meetings, or to interview candidates. My view is that you need to look at the totality of compensation for the totality of responsibilities and decide if the deal is fair or not.
minimidge 8y ago
I’m not sure sure specifically which type of perks you’re referring to, but I’ve become increasingly cynical of a big chunk of perks offered tech companies. It seems a majority of them are there to keep you at the office longer and make you more dependent on the company. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, coffee, gym, ping pong table, snacks... It’s fun and all, but I’d prefer more vacation time over a ping pong table and free dinner.
ken 8y ago
It's a simplistic model where workers have "less power" and employers have "more power". Both sides need each other. Workers only have less power individually because they negotiate separately. That's as true for software developers as it is for anyone else. The "perks" I see being offered for software developers are essentially free for employers to offer at scale. When you're paying someone a 6-digit salary, "free drinks and food" at work are cute but pointless. Anything of real value, like working conditions, are never up for negotiation. I see lots of people here saying they've never been paid for being on-call (nor have I). Most people I've asked say they'd prefer, and are more productive in, a private office, but no employer in my city offers it. You can't just switch employers to fix this. "Union overhead" is very low, for what workers get out of it. Strikes are actually quite rare. Boeing machinists are a giant union here, and they haven't been on strike in over a decade. Voting and compliance are strange things to complain about. Either they're already done today, but in different contexts (e.g., one-on-one meetings, if your manager listens to you and has the power to give you what you want), or they're not done today, and it would be a great improvement for workers if it were. These complaints sound downright bizarre in any other context. I don't hear anyone looking at a modern democratic republic with safety regulations and saying "Well, things like voting and compliance are just more trouble than they're worth".
msla 8y ago
> A union is a mechanism by which a class of people with less power (typically workers) pool together to enforce rules on people with more power (typically employers). Only if you ignore the fact union members are giving up power to union leaders, who can force them to give money to support political candidates as a condition of employment and who can, as part of a contract, deny them the ability to participate in labor actions if the union leadership disagrees, probably for some profit motive.
- msla 8y ago
  Disagreeing by downvoting proves you can't defend your arguments, you know.

by _ah 8y ago

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

notJim 8y ago

> Right now, software developers have LOTS OF POWER. This is actually not true in my experience. Having a high salary and perks isn't the same as having power. On-call is a perfect example where, AFAIK, it's not the norm to get paid for it (as a developer at least), and if you don't like it, you're free to get a new job. Except the new job will likely have the same policy. There are other work-life examples: for example, I've tried to find a part-time job, and to get jobs to offer me more vacation time in lieu of higher pay. Both of these are more common in countries with strong unions, but I've never been able to get them here.

stickfigure 8y ago
Except the new job will likely have the same policy. Nonsense. There are a bazillion software companies out there and most look nothing alike. If on-call is a dealbreaker for you, just ask the right questions and be clear up front. And if you want to work part time, consider contracting.
sokoloff 8y ago
If you have a high salary and great perks, how sure are you that you're not being paid for it? You don't need a separate line item on your paycheck to reflect the fact that you're paid to go to team meetings, company meetings, or to interview candidates. My view is that you need to look at the totality of compensation for the totality of responsibilities and decide if the deal is fair or not.

minimidge 8y ago

I’m not sure sure specifically which type of perks you’re referring to, but I’ve become increasingly cynical of a big chunk of perks offered tech companies. It seems a majority of them are there to keep you at the office longer and make you more dependent on the company. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, coffee, gym, ping pong table, snacks... It’s fun and all, but I’d prefer more vacation time over a ping pong table and free dinner.

ken 8y ago

It's a simplistic model where workers have "less power" and employers have "more power". Both sides need each other. Workers only have less power individually because they negotiate separately. That's as true for software developers as it is for anyone else. The "perks" I see being offered for software developers are essentially free for employers to offer at scale. When you're paying someone a 6-digit salary, "free drinks and food" at work are cute but pointless. Anything of real value, like working conditions, are never up for negotiation. I see lots of people here saying they've never been paid for being on-call (nor have I). Most people I've asked say they'd prefer, and are more productive in, a private office, but no employer in my city offers it. You can't just switch employers to fix this. "Union overhead" is very low, for what workers get out of it. Strikes are actually quite rare. Boeing machinists are a giant union here, and they haven't been on strike in over a decade. Voting and compliance are strange things to complain about. Either they're already done today, but in different contexts (e.g., one-on-one meetings, if your manager listens to you and has the power to give you what you want), or they're not done today, and it would be a great improvement for workers if it were. These complaints sound downright bizarre in any other context. I don't hear anyone looking at a modern democratic republic with safety regulations and saying "Well, things like voting and compliance are just more trouble than they're worth".

msla 8y ago

> A union is a mechanism by which a class of people with less power (typically workers) pool together to enforce rules on people with more power (typically employers). Only if you ignore the fact union members are giving up power to union leaders, who can force them to give money to support political candidates as a condition of employment and who can, as part of a contract, deny them the ability to participate in labor actions if the union leadership disagrees, probably for some profit motive.

msla 8y ago
Disagreeing by downvoting proves you can't defend your arguments, you know.