6 ms·

Too bad they will never open source their drivers or help nouveau instead. The only hope if they go bankrupt.

by xvilka 8y ago

malvosenior 8y ago
This is correct. What's the point of open sourcing this library when you can't even use their cards on the open source operating system. From what I understand, it wouldn't be that difficult for them to allow the community to develop a proper driver for their devices on Linux, they just don't want to. I think it's fair to point out the hypocrisy of this announcement.
- TomVDB 8y ago
  > What's the point of open sourcing this library when you can't even use their cards on the open source operating system. The point is that these two are completely orthogonal. It's like saying: what's the point of writing open source software for an x86 when the x86 RTL is closed source. With an open source PhysX library, you can make PhysX work in any environment.
  - madrix999 8y ago
    > With an open source PhysX library, you can make PhysX work in any environment. Not if their drivers on other environments dont support it. Consoles are all AMD, and NVIDIA only has 3-4% more market share on PC, while intel has around 70% of the market share. That's a really low number of platforms for a proprietary piece of tech.
    - maccard 8y ago
      PhysX works on a CPU, and the GPU acceleration is optional.
      - madrix999 8y ago
        It's actual garbage on CPU tho, it's made to be GPU accelerated. There's many more physics engines that arent proprietary to certain hardware that run way better than physx
        maccard 8y ago
        > It's actual garbage on CPU tho, it's made to be GPU accelerated Have you a source for this? Plenty of AAA games ship with CPU PhysX only. My experience with GPU PhysX is that it's not worth the resource usage, and the overhead and limitations (e.g. to do with collision filtering) make it not really suitable for general purpose use. > There's many more physics engines that arent proprietary to certain hardware that run way better than physx Again, PhysX isn't locked to any hardware. The GPU acceleration (which most games don't use) is locked to an NVidia GPU, but the CPU physics engine isn't. There is Havok and Bullet physics, both of which have pros and cons but aren't necessarily "better" than PhysX. If you have any numbers or sources to prove otherwise, I'd love to see them.
shmerl 8y ago
May be when Intel will throw in their discrete GPUs with open drivers, Nvidia will stop jerking around and will collaborate with nouveau developers. Currently Nvidia are complete jerks when it comes to helping nouveau with documenting their hardware.
- jshap70 8y ago
  full disclosure that I work for nvidia, but not on drivers. many driver devs internally do actually contribute to nouveau as well. please don't make baseless claims simply because you're angry.
  - modeless 8y ago
    Well, they're not doing a very good job then. I just upgraded to Ubuntu 18.10 on my machine with a Titan X Maxwell, and guess what? Booted to a black screen. Related to Nvidia's refusal to work with everyone else on Wayland support, no doubt. The sad thing is that this experience is typical and expected for me by now. Nearly every time I install or upgrade Linux, I have to spend hours troubleshooting Nvidia driver issues. Cumulatively, several days of my life have been wasted on this. People are angry because Nvidia has made and continues to make bad decisions that result in a poor experience on Linux.
    - jshap70 8y ago
      > Related to Nvidia's refusal to work with everyone else on Wayland support, no doubt. this is more complicated than I can really comment on, but from my understanding it was not an issue of nvidia's refusal to work on it so much as it was an issue of nvidia not being allowed a seat at the table to discuss it. the wayland protocol was effectively demanding a ground up rewrite with no ability for compromise purely because nvidia being closed source meant they weren't entitled to an opinion. which is... wow I'm sorry that's the typical experience you've had with the driver, though I'm a little surprised by that actually. I don't run x on ubuntu, but I know there were some issues in the past where they were attempting to "smartly" configure the driver for certain setups and instead end up causing headaches. Though that is really my main issue with ubuntu in general, that they try to "help" you because they know best, and also one of the reasons I don't run it. I just use the runfile installer and let it auto-generate the base xconfig.
twtw 8y ago
> never ... help nouveau https://lwn.net/Articles/568038/ https://lwn.net/Articles/568038/
- xvilka 8y ago
  It is only a small piece of documentation Nouveau developers need. Looks more like a show than a genuine help. Also it is a link from 2013...
- craftyguy 8y ago
  1) Those documents are no longer available (or the link is broken) 2) The contribution was actually not very helpful for nouveau, much of the information was already known. nvidia has done practically nothing since then to support nouveau in any meaningful way, with the exception of a one-off patchset to implement some support for Tegra. I suspect you just found the first link that seemed to validate the point you are trying to make, without actually understanding what is actually (not) going on.
  - twtw 8y ago
    1)link is broken http://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/DCB/1/DCB-4.0-Specification.html http://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/DCB/1/DCB-4.0-Specif... > nvidia has done practically nothing since then to support nouveau in any meaningful way There's an awful lot of stuff in that directory for that to be the case. > suspect you just found the first link that seemed to validate the point you are trying to make, without actually understanding what is actually (not) going on. Funny, I think the same thing when people say "nvidia never helps nouveau."
    - xvilka 8y ago
      It happened once and 5 years ago. And not a big deal anyway.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      Good thing nvidia hardware has not changed one bit since they released that limited amount of information in 2013!

Too bad they will never open source their drivers or help nouveau instead. The only hope if they go bankrupt.

by xvilka 8y ago

Too bad they will never open source their drivers or help nouveau instead. The only hope if they go bankrupt.

This is correct. What's the point of open sourcing this library when you can't even use their cards on the open source operating system. From what I understand, it wouldn't be that difficult for them to allow the community to develop a proper driver for their devices on Linux, they just don't want to. I think it's fair to point out the hypocrisy of this announcement.

TomVDB 8y ago
> What's the point of open sourcing this library when you can't even use their cards on the open source operating system. The point is that these two are completely orthogonal. It's like saying: what's the point of writing open source software for an x86 when the x86 RTL is closed source. With an open source PhysX library, you can make PhysX work in any environment.
- madrix999 8y ago
  > With an open source PhysX library, you can make PhysX work in any environment. Not if their drivers on other environments dont support it. Consoles are all AMD, and NVIDIA only has 3-4% more market share on PC, while intel has around 70% of the market share. That's a really low number of platforms for a proprietary piece of tech.
  - maccard 8y ago
    PhysX works on a CPU, and the GPU acceleration is optional.
    - madrix999 8y ago
      It's actual garbage on CPU tho, it's made to be GPU accelerated. There's many more physics engines that arent proprietary to certain hardware that run way better than physx
      - maccard 8y ago
        > It's actual garbage on CPU tho, it's made to be GPU accelerated Have you a source for this? Plenty of AAA games ship with CPU PhysX only. My experience with GPU PhysX is that it's not worth the resource usage, and the overhead and limitations (e.g. to do with collision filtering) make it not really suitable for general purpose use. > There's many more physics engines that arent proprietary to certain hardware that run way better than physx Again, PhysX isn't locked to any hardware. The GPU acceleration (which most games don't use) is locked to an NVidia GPU, but the CPU physics engine isn't. There is Havok and Bullet physics, both of which have pros and cons but aren't necessarily "better" than PhysX. If you have any numbers or sources to prove otherwise, I'd love to see them.

shmerl 8y ago

May be when Intel will throw in their discrete GPUs with open drivers, Nvidia will stop jerking around and will collaborate with nouveau developers. Currently Nvidia are complete jerks when it comes to helping nouveau with documenting their hardware.

jshap70 8y ago
full disclosure that I work for nvidia, but not on drivers. many driver devs internally do actually contribute to nouveau as well. please don't make baseless claims simply because you're angry.
- modeless 8y ago
  Well, they're not doing a very good job then. I just upgraded to Ubuntu 18.10 on my machine with a Titan X Maxwell, and guess what? Booted to a black screen. Related to Nvidia's refusal to work with everyone else on Wayland support, no doubt. The sad thing is that this experience is typical and expected for me by now. Nearly every time I install or upgrade Linux, I have to spend hours troubleshooting Nvidia driver issues. Cumulatively, several days of my life have been wasted on this. People are angry because Nvidia has made and continues to make bad decisions that result in a poor experience on Linux.
  - jshap70 8y ago
    > Related to Nvidia's refusal to work with everyone else on Wayland support, no doubt. this is more complicated than I can really comment on, but from my understanding it was not an issue of nvidia's refusal to work on it so much as it was an issue of nvidia not being allowed a seat at the table to discuss it. the wayland protocol was effectively demanding a ground up rewrite with no ability for compromise purely because nvidia being closed source meant they weren't entitled to an opinion. which is... wow I'm sorry that's the typical experience you've had with the driver, though I'm a little surprised by that actually. I don't run x on ubuntu, but I know there were some issues in the past where they were attempting to "smartly" configure the driver for certain setups and instead end up causing headaches. Though that is really my main issue with ubuntu in general, that they try to "help" you because they know best, and also one of the reasons I don't run it. I just use the runfile installer and let it auto-generate the base xconfig.

twtw 8y ago

> never ... help nouveau https://lwn.net/Articles/568038/ https://lwn.net/Articles/568038/

xvilka 8y ago
It is only a small piece of documentation Nouveau developers need. Looks more like a show than a genuine help. Also it is a link from 2013...
craftyguy 8y ago
1) Those documents are no longer available (or the link is broken) 2) The contribution was actually not very helpful for nouveau, much of the information was already known. nvidia has done practically nothing since then to support nouveau in any meaningful way, with the exception of a one-off patchset to implement some support for Tegra. I suspect you just found the first link that seemed to validate the point you are trying to make, without actually understanding what is actually (not) going on.
- twtw 8y ago
  1)link is broken http://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/DCB/1/DCB-4.0-Specification.html http://download.nvidia.com/open-gpu-doc/DCB/1/DCB-4.0-Specif... > nvidia has done practically nothing since then to support nouveau in any meaningful way There's an awful lot of stuff in that directory for that to be the case. > suspect you just found the first link that seemed to validate the point you are trying to make, without actually understanding what is actually (not) going on. Funny, I think the same thing when people say "nvidia never helps nouveau."
  - xvilka 8y ago
    It happened once and 5 years ago. And not a big deal anyway.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    Good thing nvidia hardware has not changed one bit since they released that limited amount of information in 2013!