5 ms·

I find “portemantout” doesn't roll off the tongue. Instead, something like “portemantotal” would sound better. Also, the defining characteristic of the problem

I find “portemantout” doesn't roll off the tongue. Instead, something like “portemantotal” would sound better. Also, the defining characteristic of the problem that the words overlap is just not used for portemanteaux. For example: « porte » and « manteau » don't overlap in « portemanteau ». It's still a very nice problem!

JadeNB 8y ago
> I find “portemantout” doesn't roll off the tongue. Instead, something like “portemantotal” would sound better. But 'porte' and 'manteau' are French, so it makes sense to try to work in 'tout' rather than 'total'. Also, 'portmantout' (not, I think, 'portemantout', since the original is 'portmanteau') involves only one change in vowel sound, right, not any major shift in pronunciation?
- Fishkins 8y ago
  > Also, 'portmantout' (not, I think, 'portemantout', since the original is 'portmanteau') involves only one change in vowel sound, right, not any major shift in pronunciation? Right on both counts. "Porte" means "door", "port" means "to carry/wear". The latter is the word used in "portmanteau". I also agree "portmantout" sounds nice, and very similar to "portmanteau".
  - JadeNB 8y ago
    > "Porte" means "door", "port" means "to carry/wear". Thanks for the polite correction. (I said 'porte' when dissecting the word in my original post, even though I did get the word 'portmanteau' as a whole correct.)
    - jgtrosh 8y ago
      Porte means wear/carry as a verb in the imperative form or singular indicative forms; it can also mean a door, probably for weird etymological reasons. In the case of porte-manteau it absolutely means carry. I don't know if this common kind of construction in French is technically supposed to be built from the imperative or indicative, which would alternate the way of building a corresponding construct in English. If it's the imperative, such constructs (garde-manger, promène-couillon, tire-au-flanc, lèche-vitrine, mange-mort) would be written like carry-all (you'd have keep-food, lick-window, eat-dead). If it's the indicative, and in particular the 3rd person (he/she/one), as in « [l'objet qui] porte [des] manteaux », then a corresponding English construct would be carries-all, keeps-food, … which just sounds very weird in English. I don't know what the official underlying grammatical construct is, but just trying to kind of keep the French construct while changing it slightly seems completely out of place. Furthermore, nowhere does the idea of porte-manteau carry any meaning as to the exercice of the original post which looks for partially-overlapping words. Edit: That last paragraph of mine is just wrong. I just read Wikipedia and indeed the English word actually contains the ideas of overlap/truncation. That comes from the redefining of portemanteau (as a coat hanger, or the original term of the person carrying a coat) into a suitcase that splits in two equal parts. I just always assumed it described the way porte and manteau were stuck together (in which there's no overlap/truncation), instead of the suitcase meaning. * I still maintain there's just no reason for the English word to have been bastardized into portmanteau. * Also the fact that portmanteau/portemanteau is used to describe words being combined in a different way to how porte and manteau are combined just seems needlessly confusing.
  - jgtrosh 8y ago
    Port as in to carry/wear is the noun, whereas porte is the corresponding verb. Porte-manteau is the logical form for the combined noun/adjective (as in carry-all, see-all). In English the common form for combining meanings is e.g. goal-keeper which in French translates as gardien de but ; porte-manteau is one of the classic cases where it's shortened to verb-noun. (For gardien de but it would be garde-but, which is weird, I guess it sounds like garde-manger.) Port-manteau just wouldn't sound right.
- Darkstack 8y ago
  The funniest thing is that Portmanteau is not a french word in the first place. it's a large travelling case wich open like a book (in old english). Porte-Manteau used to be the guy carrying the coat of the King and is not a Portmanteau. We translate portmanteau as "Mot-Valise" in french which means "Case(as in luggage)-Word".
- jgtrosh 8y ago
  Total is absolutely French. The fuel company did not take an English name! The « to » in the French total is pronounced exactly like the « teau » in porte-manteau. (Unlike « tout », of course.) You made me realize that the word porte-manteau was indeed butchered into portmanteau, which is supposed to sound French if you pronounce it in English. That's just another level of silliness to me…
  - JadeNB 8y ago
    > The « to » in the French total is pronounced exactly like the « teau » in porte-manteau. (Unlike « tout », of course.) Yes, that is why I referred to one change in vowel sound: > Also, 'portmantout' (not, I think, 'portemantout', since the original is 'portmanteau') involves only one change in vowel sound, right, not any major shift in pronunciation? (In fact I think it is not a bad thing if different words, even with common derivations, sound different.) > You made me realize that the word porte-manteau was indeed butchered into portmanteau, which is supposed to sound French if you pronounce it in English. As Fishkins (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589920) points out, it is 'portmanteau' ('port' + 'manteau'), not 'portemanteau' ('porte' + 'manteau'). The fact that English speakers sound the 't' in 'port' is not, I think, the fault of the word!
    - jgtrosh 8y ago
      As I answered Fishkins, « porte » in this context does mean carry (even though it could mean door, but that doesn't make any sense with porte-manteau). My argument that portemantout/portmantout sounds weird is partly an aesthetic one: technically the change of vowel sound is sufficient to hear the difference, but when I say the french word out loud, it just sounds weird. I guess in English if you're saying portmanteau/portemanteau (sorry I'm gonna keep writing both, the official English one is too annoying!) you're already going out of common English pronounciation and the short “oo” at the end does kind of push the message across. In French it's a very mundane word, and only changing the last vowel sounds either like a mistake or… like it's trying too hard to be cutesy. (I guess you kind of have to really exaggerate that very slight « ou », and… then it's merely subjective.) On the other hand, I suggested the alternative « total » because instead of changing the vowel, it adds an extra syllable to clarify the juxtaposition, and it simply sounds better in French. Admittedly, it doesn't sound particularly good in English, and it's really not an important debate to begin with, so I'll leave it at that. edit: corrected a justification based on the idea that portmantout is not a portmanteau/portemanteau, because it is. also I reduced the number of times I wrote “just” because it was getting out of hand. dang I feel like I'm writing a commit message…

JadeNB 8y ago

> I find “portemantout” doesn't roll off the tongue. Instead, something like “portemantotal” would sound better. But 'porte' and 'manteau' are French, so it makes sense to try to work in 'tout' rather than 'total'. Also, 'portmantout' (not, I think, 'portemantout', since the original is 'portmanteau') involves only one change in vowel sound, right, not any major shift in pronunciation?

Fishkins 8y ago
> Also, 'portmantout' (not, I think, 'portemantout', since the original is 'portmanteau') involves only one change in vowel sound, right, not any major shift in pronunciation? Right on both counts. "Porte" means "door", "port" means "to carry/wear". The latter is the word used in "portmanteau". I also agree "portmantout" sounds nice, and very similar to "portmanteau".
- JadeNB 8y ago
  > "Porte" means "door", "port" means "to carry/wear". Thanks for the polite correction. (I said 'porte' when dissecting the word in my original post, even though I did get the word 'portmanteau' as a whole correct.)
  - jgtrosh 8y ago
    Porte means wear/carry as a verb in the imperative form or singular indicative forms; it can also mean a door, probably for weird etymological reasons. In the case of porte-manteau it absolutely means carry. I don't know if this common kind of construction in French is technically supposed to be built from the imperative or indicative, which would alternate the way of building a corresponding construct in English. If it's the imperative, such constructs (garde-manger, promène-couillon, tire-au-flanc, lèche-vitrine, mange-mort) would be written like carry-all (you'd have keep-food, lick-window, eat-dead). If it's the indicative, and in particular the 3rd person (he/she/one), as in « [l'objet qui] porte [des] manteaux », then a corresponding English construct would be carries-all, keeps-food, … which just sounds very weird in English. I don't know what the official underlying grammatical construct is, but just trying to kind of keep the French construct while changing it slightly seems completely out of place. Furthermore, nowhere does the idea of porte-manteau carry any meaning as to the exercice of the original post which looks for partially-overlapping words. Edit: That last paragraph of mine is just wrong. I just read Wikipedia and indeed the English word actually contains the ideas of overlap/truncation. That comes from the redefining of portemanteau (as a coat hanger, or the original term of the person carrying a coat) into a suitcase that splits in two equal parts. I just always assumed it described the way porte and manteau were stuck together (in which there's no overlap/truncation), instead of the suitcase meaning. * I still maintain there's just no reason for the English word to have been bastardized into portmanteau. * Also the fact that portmanteau/portemanteau is used to describe words being combined in a different way to how porte and manteau are combined just seems needlessly confusing.
- jgtrosh 8y ago
  Port as in to carry/wear is the noun, whereas porte is the corresponding verb. Porte-manteau is the logical form for the combined noun/adjective (as in carry-all, see-all). In English the common form for combining meanings is e.g. goal-keeper which in French translates as gardien de but ; porte-manteau is one of the classic cases where it's shortened to verb-noun. (For gardien de but it would be garde-but, which is weird, I guess it sounds like garde-manger.) Port-manteau just wouldn't sound right.
Darkstack 8y ago
The funniest thing is that Portmanteau is not a french word in the first place. it's a large travelling case wich open like a book (in old english). Porte-Manteau used to be the guy carrying the coat of the King and is not a Portmanteau. We translate portmanteau as "Mot-Valise" in french which means "Case(as in luggage)-Word".
jgtrosh 8y ago
Total is absolutely French. The fuel company did not take an English name! The « to » in the French total is pronounced exactly like the « teau » in porte-manteau. (Unlike « tout », of course.) You made me realize that the word porte-manteau was indeed butchered into portmanteau, which is supposed to sound French if you pronounce it in English. That's just another level of silliness to me…
- JadeNB 8y ago
  > The « to » in the French total is pronounced exactly like the « teau » in porte-manteau. (Unlike « tout », of course.) Yes, that is why I referred to one change in vowel sound: > Also, 'portmantout' (not, I think, 'portemantout', since the original is 'portmanteau') involves only one change in vowel sound, right, not any major shift in pronunciation? (In fact I think it is not a bad thing if different words, even with common derivations, sound different.) > You made me realize that the word porte-manteau was indeed butchered into portmanteau, which is supposed to sound French if you pronounce it in English. As Fishkins (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589920 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18589920) points out, it is 'portmanteau' ('port' + 'manteau'), not 'portemanteau' ('porte' + 'manteau'). The fact that English speakers sound the 't' in 'port' is not, I think, the fault of the word!
  - jgtrosh 8y ago
    As I answered Fishkins, « porte » in this context does mean carry (even though it could mean door, but that doesn't make any sense with porte-manteau). My argument that portemantout/portmantout sounds weird is partly an aesthetic one: technically the change of vowel sound is sufficient to hear the difference, but when I say the french word out loud, it just sounds weird. I guess in English if you're saying portmanteau/portemanteau (sorry I'm gonna keep writing both, the official English one is too annoying!) you're already going out of common English pronounciation and the short “oo” at the end does kind of push the message across. In French it's a very mundane word, and only changing the last vowel sounds either like a mistake or… like it's trying too hard to be cutesy. (I guess you kind of have to really exaggerate that very slight « ou », and… then it's merely subjective.) On the other hand, I suggested the alternative « total » because instead of changing the vowel, it adds an extra syllable to clarify the juxtaposition, and it simply sounds better in French. Admittedly, it doesn't sound particularly good in English, and it's really not an important debate to begin with, so I'll leave it at that. edit: corrected a justification based on the idea that portmantout is not a portmanteau/portemanteau, because it is. also I reduced the number of times I wrote “just” because it was getting out of hand. dang I feel like I'm writing a commit message…