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If building a new network from scratch or replacing diesel, then yes, there is no doubt that battery electrics are cheaper. Also, batteries are charged overnigh

If building a new network from scratch or replacing diesel, then yes, there is no doubt that battery electrics are cheaper. Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used. The argument about batteries being damaging to the environment mostly relates to cobalt mining. However, buses typically use iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries which contain no cobalt.

moltar 8y ago
Even better. An electric bus in Montreal takes 5 minutes to charge for about an hour of route driving. The charger is at the end of the route. While the driver is having a break, the bus is charged. Source: I asked the driver.
moltar 8y ago
And coincidently, here’s an article from today: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montreals-electric-buses-comes-at-a-high-cost https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr...
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  An article that lambasts the project because it was insanely expensive and sucks. $1.2M buses with a range of 37km. They charge those batteries so often they will need replaced frequenty. A charging station is $800k. For an 11km route. The cost for an overhead wire installation for 11km is roughly that same price, and it would save all the battery costs for the 7 buses that will eventually use it.
  - moltar 8y ago
    There’s no way they’d install overhead wire in Montreal for that much. Also, that’s the cost of being first. Early adopters pay more. I agree that it’s expendive tho. But I don’t mind as a taxpayer. I’m glad the city is forward thinking in some areas.
    - agsdfgsd 8y ago
      >There’s no way they’d install overhead wire in Montreal for that much. Yes, there is. Montreal runs $60k per km. >I’m glad the city is forward thinking in some areas. The city isn't forward thinking, it is exploiting ignorance to steal from people. Wasting tons of money on stupid nonsense like this is possible precisely because people think "oh its green so its ok" when it is the same corporate bribery to corrupt politicians to steal from the people as always. This is tremendously wasteful, and still burns tons of diesel. Tram buses would cost less and stop burning diesel period.
agsdfgsd 8y ago
>If building a new network from scratch How so? You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles. >or replacing diesel Sure, if you are just replacing a couple of buses it would make sense. >Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used Batteries have to be charged multiple times per day. It isn't feasible for a bus to carry around an entire day of energy in batteries, the extra weight uses more extra energy than is worthwhile. And lots of places don't have cheap off-peak electricity, they have a single rate.
- Reason077 8y ago
  "You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles." If the lifespan of the batteries is 20,000 cycles, then they would last 54 years with daily cycling! In reality, the cycle life is probably less than that, but is still sufficient to ensure many years of daily service. Diesel buses do not usually last much more than 10 years in daily service anyway. "Batteries have to be charged multiple times per day. It isn't feasible for a bus to carry around an entire day of energy in batteries" That is incorrect. The range of a battery electric bus is hundreds of miles, more than enough for a full day's duty in most cities. London, for example, has several hundred battery electric busses, including double-deckers, many of which have been in daily service for several years now. These have been very successful and there are hundreds more on order. Their strategy is to install chargers in the depots where the busses are parked overnight. There is currently no facility for charging on-route or topping up during the day. I expect that at some point in the next 1-2 years, London will commit to purchasing only zero-emission busses with the goal of an all-electric fleet by 2030 or so.
  - agsdfgsd 8y ago
    >If the lifespan of the batteries is 20,000 cycles It is less than, as I said. >then they would last 54 years with daily cycling! Which isn't the case unless they are buying 10 times the batteries and swapping them all day. They can't run all day on a single charge. >Diesel buses do not usually last much more than 10 years in daily service anyway. What? There's tons of Diesel buses that are decades old and in use. And what on earth do diesel buses have to do with anything? We're comparing batteries vs wires. >That is incorrect https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montreals-electric-buses-comes-at-a-high-cost https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr... >The range of a battery electric bus is hundreds of miles Not any of the ones anyone has. And those buses are burning diesel to heat the bus in the winter, which would not be needed using a tram bus. >I expect that at some point in the next 1-2 years, London will commit to purchasing only zero-emission busses with the goal of an all-electric fleet by 2030 or so. What does that have to do with anything? Electric buses are "zero emission" (move the emission somewhere else) regardless of batteries vs power lines.

moltar 8y ago

Even better. An electric bus in Montreal takes 5 minutes to charge for about an hour of route driving. The charger is at the end of the route. While the driver is having a break, the bus is charged. Source: I asked the driver.

moltar 8y ago

And coincidently, here’s an article from today: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montreals-electric-buses-comes-at-a-high-cost https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr...

agsdfgsd 8y ago
An article that lambasts the project because it was insanely expensive and sucks. $1.2M buses with a range of 37km. They charge those batteries so often they will need replaced frequenty. A charging station is $800k. For an 11km route. The cost for an overhead wire installation for 11km is roughly that same price, and it would save all the battery costs for the 7 buses that will eventually use it.
- moltar 8y ago
  There’s no way they’d install overhead wire in Montreal for that much. Also, that’s the cost of being first. Early adopters pay more. I agree that it’s expendive tho. But I don’t mind as a taxpayer. I’m glad the city is forward thinking in some areas.
  - agsdfgsd 8y ago
    >There’s no way they’d install overhead wire in Montreal for that much. Yes, there is. Montreal runs $60k per km. >I’m glad the city is forward thinking in some areas. The city isn't forward thinking, it is exploiting ignorance to steal from people. Wasting tons of money on stupid nonsense like this is possible precisely because people think "oh its green so its ok" when it is the same corporate bribery to corrupt politicians to steal from the people as always. This is tremendously wasteful, and still burns tons of diesel. Tram buses would cost less and stop burning diesel period.

agsdfgsd 8y ago

>If building a new network from scratch How so? You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles. >or replacing diesel Sure, if you are just replacing a couple of buses it would make sense. >Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used Batteries have to be charged multiple times per day. It isn't feasible for a bus to carry around an entire day of energy in batteries, the extra weight uses more extra energy than is worthwhile. And lots of places don't have cheap off-peak electricity, they have a single rate.

Reason077 8y ago
"You're talking about literal tons of batteries, and the charging stations for them. And you have to replace those batteries every decade because their useful lifespan is less than 20,000 cycles." If the lifespan of the batteries is 20,000 cycles, then they would last 54 years with daily cycling! In reality, the cycle life is probably less than that, but is still sufficient to ensure many years of daily service. Diesel buses do not usually last much more than 10 years in daily service anyway. "Batteries have to be charged multiple times per day. It isn't feasible for a bus to carry around an entire day of energy in batteries" That is incorrect. The range of a battery electric bus is hundreds of miles, more than enough for a full day's duty in most cities. London, for example, has several hundred battery electric busses, including double-deckers, many of which have been in daily service for several years now. These have been very successful and there are hundreds more on order. Their strategy is to install chargers in the depots where the busses are parked overnight. There is currently no facility for charging on-route or topping up during the day. I expect that at some point in the next 1-2 years, London will commit to purchasing only zero-emission busses with the goal of an all-electric fleet by 2030 or so.
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  >If the lifespan of the batteries is 20,000 cycles It is less than, as I said. >then they would last 54 years with daily cycling! Which isn't the case unless they are buying 10 times the batteries and swapping them all day. They can't run all day on a single charge. >Diesel buses do not usually last much more than 10 years in daily service anyway. What? There's tons of Diesel buses that are decades old and in use. And what on earth do diesel buses have to do with anything? We're comparing batteries vs wires. >That is incorrect https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montreals-electric-buses-comes-at-a-high-cost https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr... >The range of a battery electric bus is hundreds of miles Not any of the ones anyone has. And those buses are burning diesel to heat the bus in the winter, which would not be needed using a tram bus. >I expect that at some point in the next 1-2 years, London will commit to purchasing only zero-emission busses with the goal of an all-electric fleet by 2030 or so. What does that have to do with anything? Electric buses are "zero emission" (move the emission somewhere else) regardless of batteries vs power lines.