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Are a few overhead wires actually more expensive than the massive batteries electric buses require? They are certainly less damaging to the environment.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago
Batteries are a commodity. Production can get outsourced to whoever can deliver the best value. Up front costs are smaller and you never have to worry about infrastructure upgrades because there's no special infrastructure. You can just replace your diesel buses with electric as they come due. You automatically get upgrades buses every few years because buses don't last 40+ like trains do and you aren't ever forced to upgrade your overhead electric infrastructure The wires are planned and owned by an (intentionally) inefficient government bureaucracy and installed and maintained by expensive local labor and you can't just change routes on a whim, you may be forced to do a full system upgrade in the future, etc, etc. In somewhere like China where the government can just tell people where the trams are going to be and that's that the wires are probably the better solution in more cases. In the west where have to work with the public to get their approval for infrastructure it's generally a better all around solution to buy electric buses to replace your diesel ones even if it is less environmentally efficient on paper. Edit: Some of you are appear to be taking my factual statement about the efficiency of government poorly. The inefficiency of government is a feature, not a bug. Government that can do good things (like install wires for trams) quickly and fairly unilaterally can also do bad things (like waste money installing wires for trams where nobody wants them) fairly unilaterally. You can't have it both ways and sometimes you just have to work around the system and if that means buying the buses with batteries then that's fine.
- shaki-dora 8y ago
  Maybe phrase it better in the future, in a way that does not buy into the widespread, tiresome cynicism of “goveerment waste/incompetence/beaurocacry/corruption”. I.e. “Stringing wires in a dense urban environment requires co-ordination with many stakeholders and balancing of interests, such as the preservation of the visual appeal of historical landmarks, local shopkeepers’ interest in preserving parking spaces possibly occupied by the support structures, the disruption by construction crews...”
Reason077 8y ago
If building a new network from scratch or replacing diesel, then yes, there is no doubt that battery electrics are cheaper. Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used. The argument about batteries being damaging to the environment mostly relates to cobalt mining. However, buses typically use iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries which contain no cobalt.
- moltar 8y ago
  Even better. An electric bus in Montreal takes 5 minutes to charge for about an hour of route driving. The charger is at the end of the route. While the driver is having a break, the bus is charged. Source: I asked the driver.
- moltar 8y ago
  And coincidently, here’s an article from today: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montreals-electric-buses-comes-at-a-high-cost https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr...
  - agsdfgsd 8y ago
    An article that lambasts the project because it was insanely expensive and sucks. $1.2M buses with a range of 37km. They charge those batteries so often they will need replaced frequenty. A charging station is $800k. For an 11km route. The cost for an overhead wire installation for 11km is roughly that same price, and it would save all the battery costs for the 7 buses that will eventually use it.
    - moltar 8y ago
      There’s no way they’d install overhead wire in Montreal for that much. Also, that’s the cost of being first. Early adopters pay more. I agree that it’s expendive tho. But I don’t mind as a taxpayer. I’m glad the city is forward thinking in some areas.
      - 8y ago
adrianN 8y ago
It's not the wires that are expensive, is the bureaucracy required to do infrastructure work in a busy city.
- khuey 8y ago
  Also the labor required to string all those wires up.
ekianjo 8y ago
Copper is not cheap anymore, thats why copper cables get stolen at night in a number of countries. Plus there may be new safety considerations compared to when trolleys were retired.
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  >Copper is not cheap anymore Neither are batteries. >Plus there may be new safety considerations compared to when trolleys were retired. Like what? What new safety consideration prevents us from using overhead power lines now? And trolleys were not retired in lots of cities.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    There are probably hundreds of volumes of new city planning regulations that were added in most countries in the West in the past 50 years. Assuming this does not impact installing new equipment and facilities is naive.
mmikeff 8y ago
Buying a handful of electric buses as the start of a migration away from diesel is a lot cheaper to get started, and a lot less commitment than installing all the infrastructure before you can run a single tram.
bluGill 8y ago
Wires are expensive and not environmentally friendly to make ether. Remember we are talking about kms/miles of wires, not the few meters/feet in a house.
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  >Wires are expensive Relative to what they used to cost, sure. Relative to batteries they are quite cheap. It takes a lot of batteries to move a bus, and they have to be replaced every few years because they are charged and discharged multiple times per day.

dsfyu404ed 8y ago

Batteries are a commodity. Production can get outsourced to whoever can deliver the best value. Up front costs are smaller and you never have to worry about infrastructure upgrades because there's no special infrastructure. You can just replace your diesel buses with electric as they come due. You automatically get upgrades buses every few years because buses don't last 40+ like trains do and you aren't ever forced to upgrade your overhead electric infrastructure The wires are planned and owned by an (intentionally) inefficient government bureaucracy and installed and maintained by expensive local labor and you can't just change routes on a whim, you may be forced to do a full system upgrade in the future, etc, etc. In somewhere like China where the government can just tell people where the trams are going to be and that's that the wires are probably the better solution in more cases. In the west where have to work with the public to get their approval for infrastructure it's generally a better all around solution to buy electric buses to replace your diesel ones even if it is less environmentally efficient on paper. Edit: Some of you are appear to be taking my factual statement about the efficiency of government poorly. The inefficiency of government is a feature, not a bug. Government that can do good things (like install wires for trams) quickly and fairly unilaterally can also do bad things (like waste money installing wires for trams where nobody wants them) fairly unilaterally. You can't have it both ways and sometimes you just have to work around the system and if that means buying the buses with batteries then that's fine.

shaki-dora 8y ago
Maybe phrase it better in the future, in a way that does not buy into the widespread, tiresome cynicism of “goveerment waste/incompetence/beaurocacry/corruption”. I.e. “Stringing wires in a dense urban environment requires co-ordination with many stakeholders and balancing of interests, such as the preservation of the visual appeal of historical landmarks, local shopkeepers’ interest in preserving parking spaces possibly occupied by the support structures, the disruption by construction crews...”

Reason077 8y ago

If building a new network from scratch or replacing diesel, then yes, there is no doubt that battery electrics are cheaper. Also, batteries are charged overnight, allowing cheap off-peak energy to be used. The argument about batteries being damaging to the environment mostly relates to cobalt mining. However, buses typically use iron-phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries which contain no cobalt.

moltar 8y ago
Even better. An electric bus in Montreal takes 5 minutes to charge for about an hour of route driving. The charger is at the end of the route. While the driver is having a break, the bus is charged. Source: I asked the driver.
moltar 8y ago
And coincidently, here’s an article from today: https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montreals-electric-buses-comes-at-a-high-cost https://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/success-of-montr...
- agsdfgsd 8y ago
  An article that lambasts the project because it was insanely expensive and sucks. $1.2M buses with a range of 37km. They charge those batteries so often they will need replaced frequenty. A charging station is $800k. For an 11km route. The cost for an overhead wire installation for 11km is roughly that same price, and it would save all the battery costs for the 7 buses that will eventually use it.
  - moltar 8y ago
    There’s no way they’d install overhead wire in Montreal for that much. Also, that’s the cost of being first. Early adopters pay more. I agree that it’s expendive tho. But I don’t mind as a taxpayer. I’m glad the city is forward thinking in some areas.
    - 8y ago

adrianN 8y ago

It's not the wires that are expensive, is the bureaucracy required to do infrastructure work in a busy city.

khuey 8y ago
Also the labor required to string all those wires up.

ekianjo 8y ago

Copper is not cheap anymore, thats why copper cables get stolen at night in a number of countries. Plus there may be new safety considerations compared to when trolleys were retired.

agsdfgsd 8y ago
>Copper is not cheap anymore Neither are batteries. >Plus there may be new safety considerations compared to when trolleys were retired. Like what? What new safety consideration prevents us from using overhead power lines now? And trolleys were not retired in lots of cities.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  There are probably hundreds of volumes of new city planning regulations that were added in most countries in the West in the past 50 years. Assuming this does not impact installing new equipment and facilities is naive.

mmikeff 8y ago

Buying a handful of electric buses as the start of a migration away from diesel is a lot cheaper to get started, and a lot less commitment than installing all the infrastructure before you can run a single tram.

bluGill 8y ago

Wires are expensive and not environmentally friendly to make ether. Remember we are talking about kms/miles of wires, not the few meters/feet in a house.

agsdfgsd 8y ago
>Wires are expensive Relative to what they used to cost, sure. Relative to batteries they are quite cheap. It takes a lot of batteries to move a bus, and they have to be replaced every few years because they are charged and discharged multiple times per day.