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As an adult, I've only really ever had an active social life for one short period where I was barely surviving as a retail wage slave. My coworkers were all in

As an adult, I've only really ever had an active social life for one short period where I was barely surviving as a retail wage slave. My coworkers were all in the same situation, but we found solace in our shared misery, and I made a lot of really good friends. As a programmer, I sometimes make friends with my coworkers, but it's a very sanitized sort of interaction. Genuine exchanges of ideas is a dangerous proposition when it means risking our livelihood. The only place where I can freely exchange conversation with strangers is, ironically, on wild backcountry trails. Out there, information is very important. How much snow is there on the ridgeline? Where is the next water source? Any good campsites? And so on. I've come to believe over the years that friendship can essentially be distilled down to proximity + a common interest + time. Unfortunately, we spend most of our time working, and these three things are very difficult to find outside of the workplace.

richforrester 8y ago
This is a problem with how employment works, more than anything. I've always "hung out" with colleagues after work hours. Because we're all in the same boat, and have more in common with each-other than anyone else, because we spend 40+ hours a week in the same room. It's a failure of HR and management, imo, when that doesn't happen. And it can be increasingly hard to fix.
- k__ 8y ago
  I stopped doing employment because I don't have much interest in most people. At work I had to hang around some random guys for 40h a week and I just couldn't stand it. Now I'm a freelancer and work remote, so I can minimize the non-work related communication with co-workers. I have a few friends and go to parties two times a month and host my own meetup one time a month.
  - richforrester 8y ago
    Glad you're able to work like that. A lot of people aren't though. For them, there needs to be a different solution.
  - lawnchair_larry 8y ago
    What sort of parties happen that frequently?
    - k__ 8y ago
      80's, batcave, darkwave, gothic, ebm...
- hrktb 8y ago
  > 40+ hours a week in the same room The more it goes the more I have resistance to that very concept. Then I see people expecting to go to lunch together, and spent more time after work hours. Am I getting broken or something ? It seems to me that’s an ungodly amount of our life time expected to spend with “just” coworkers. They are nice people, but it’s not like I am marrying them. I guess I wouldn’t be able to live in middle size submarine.
- Kiro 8y ago
  I don't want to spend a single minute more with my coworkers than I already do. I'm glad HR is not interfering with that.
JumpCrisscross 8y ago
I commute between New York and the Bay Area. It is so hard to strike up a meaningful conversation with a stranger out west. And it’s not just New York. In most big cities, I can reliably find an acquaintance after a few hours at a restaurant, bar or museum. But the Bay Area is so reticent. The closest comparison to it I can think of is the Middle East.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  It's interesting that you bring up the Middle East. Is that from experiences as a foreigner or a native?
  - luckydata 8y ago
    I think it's a typo and meant "Mid West" instead. Could be wrong.
    - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
      Meant the Middle East. Midwesterners are terrifically warm and welcoming, if one takes the first step.
      - therein 8y ago
        Middle Easterners are even more so, but probably not to foreigners as much. (although in parts of Turkey and Iran even the people living in villages will welcome you into their homes) Ever noticed why true homelessness is so low in middle eastern countries? The "homeless" there often are people with homes who just don't go there at night.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    Foreigner. If you sit in a social setting in Dubai or Riyadh or Jordan, you’ll be left alone. All day. Sort of like the Bay Area. Anywhere else, somebody will say hi.
- 0xFFC 8y ago
losteric 8y ago
> I've come to believe over the years that friendship can essentially be distilled down to proximity + a common interest + time. Unfortunately, we spend most of our time working, and these three things are very difficult to find outside of the workplace. Think about my childhood, that idea rings true - kids connect relatively quickly because they have all this time together and for exploring interests, or at minimum "shared misery". I'd say college was the best time to meet people... we had so much free time, mixing with new people very quarter, and even dorming with "strangers". Although, I also believe we are way to risk averse as adults. Personally, I share this attitude: > Genuine exchanges of ideas is a dangerous proposition when it means risking our livelihood. but I'm deeply questioning it these days. (edit: assuming "genuine exchange of ideas" does not violate law/HR - a more complicated issue) Why should we suppress ourselves in the name of livelihood? Tech is a high-demand skill-based field with labor shortages projected to last upward a decade despite immigration and new graduates. We get paid well enough to have financial security (savings). Urban tech is one of the most diverse field out there. What's the worst that could happen? Leaving a poor culture fit to find a company/team we connect with? That sounds like a positive, well worth the switching cost. So why the conservatism? If this will be a life-long career, is the total time/emotional/mental/physical cost of work worth the benefits? If not... why conform? Networking is the most common response, but who maintains connections with people they dislike? Money is the next most common response, but towards what ends? How much additional wealth does conformity buy, and why is deferring happiness worth it? Time is expensive - every day is one out of our limited and unknown lifespan. edit - To answer myself: Conformity was the fastest post-graduation path to funding my own business. Now that I can safely afford the gamble, the ideas still work but my priorities have changed - I recognize this corporate lifestyle of working 40h/week in an office thinking for profit is personally unsustainable regardless of who's boss. So, I stopped conforming and next spring I'm off for some tru-hiking/traveling then pivoting to a new field through grad school (the brewing recession might be a happy coincidence). I'm questioning myself, but no more than when I started college/working. I am confident that staying on the old path is the only wrong choice (sunk cost fallacy).
- jerkstate 8y ago
  Switching jobs is an enormous cost and risk to almost anybody. Sure, there are a lot of tech jobs, but you will probably spend dozens or hundreds hours changing to one that will pay you the same or more as you are making now. So you've got this sunk cost and there is no guarantee that your controversial opinion will be acceptable at your next job, unless you discuss it during your interview (which will probably mean it will take you longer to find a job, because that's just weird interview behavior) In my opinion, if you want to share controversial opinions, do it somewhere with a low switching cost, or high trust. I am happy to talk about my politics or sexuality at my hacker space, tree planting group, with regulars at the bar, or with my immediate family (who I love and trust even though we disagree on a lot). I am perfectly happy not finding common interests at work or the PTA, especially when I know my opinions are outside of the first standard deviation.
stefs 8y ago
expats often ask on our city-subreddit how to make friends. our go-to answer is usually: (sports/activity) clubs (not bars). i can observe this in our weightlifting club. your job, your home country, your social background, your interests don't matter much; we at least have the common interest in weightlifting as a conversation starter, and other activities (usually dinner after training) are common. from there on you can decide to further socializing by, e.g. helping people from that community with the various tasks (moving, computer troubles, the usual stuff). it's still possible for people to keep to themselves, but if you want to make friends, that's an easy way.

richforrester 8y ago

This is a problem with how employment works, more than anything. I've always "hung out" with colleagues after work hours. Because we're all in the same boat, and have more in common with each-other than anyone else, because we spend 40+ hours a week in the same room. It's a failure of HR and management, imo, when that doesn't happen. And it can be increasingly hard to fix.

k__ 8y ago
I stopped doing employment because I don't have much interest in most people. At work I had to hang around some random guys for 40h a week and I just couldn't stand it. Now I'm a freelancer and work remote, so I can minimize the non-work related communication with co-workers. I have a few friends and go to parties two times a month and host my own meetup one time a month.
- richforrester 8y ago
  Glad you're able to work like that. A lot of people aren't though. For them, there needs to be a different solution.
- lawnchair_larry 8y ago
  What sort of parties happen that frequently?
  - k__ 8y ago
    80's, batcave, darkwave, gothic, ebm...
hrktb 8y ago
> 40+ hours a week in the same room The more it goes the more I have resistance to that very concept. Then I see people expecting to go to lunch together, and spent more time after work hours. Am I getting broken or something ? It seems to me that’s an ungodly amount of our life time expected to spend with “just” coworkers. They are nice people, but it’s not like I am marrying them. I guess I wouldn’t be able to live in middle size submarine.
Kiro 8y ago
I don't want to spend a single minute more with my coworkers than I already do. I'm glad HR is not interfering with that.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

I commute between New York and the Bay Area. It is so hard to strike up a meaningful conversation with a stranger out west. And it’s not just New York. In most big cities, I can reliably find an acquaintance after a few hours at a restaurant, bar or museum. But the Bay Area is so reticent. The closest comparison to it I can think of is the Middle East.

whatshisface 8y ago
It's interesting that you bring up the Middle East. Is that from experiences as a foreigner or a native?
- luckydata 8y ago
  I think it's a typo and meant "Mid West" instead. Could be wrong.
  - JumpCrisscross 8y ago
    Meant the Middle East. Midwesterners are terrifically warm and welcoming, if one takes the first step.
    - therein 8y ago
      Middle Easterners are even more so, but probably not to foreigners as much. (although in parts of Turkey and Iran even the people living in villages will welcome you into their homes) Ever noticed why true homelessness is so low in middle eastern countries? The "homeless" there often are people with homes who just don't go there at night.
- JumpCrisscross 8y ago
  Foreigner. If you sit in a social setting in Dubai or Riyadh or Jordan, you’ll be left alone. All day. Sort of like the Bay Area. Anywhere else, somebody will say hi.
0xFFC 8y ago

losteric 8y ago

> I've come to believe over the years that friendship can essentially be distilled down to proximity + a common interest + time. Unfortunately, we spend most of our time working, and these three things are very difficult to find outside of the workplace. Think about my childhood, that idea rings true - kids connect relatively quickly because they have all this time together and for exploring interests, or at minimum "shared misery". I'd say college was the best time to meet people... we had so much free time, mixing with new people very quarter, and even dorming with "strangers". Although, I also believe we are way to risk averse as adults. Personally, I share this attitude: > Genuine exchanges of ideas is a dangerous proposition when it means risking our livelihood. but I'm deeply questioning it these days. (edit: assuming "genuine exchange of ideas" does not violate law/HR - a more complicated issue) Why should we suppress ourselves in the name of livelihood? Tech is a high-demand skill-based field with labor shortages projected to last upward a decade despite immigration and new graduates. We get paid well enough to have financial security (savings). Urban tech is one of the most diverse field out there. What's the worst that could happen? Leaving a poor culture fit to find a company/team we connect with? That sounds like a positive, well worth the switching cost. So why the conservatism? If this will be a life-long career, is the total time/emotional/mental/physical cost of work worth the benefits? If not... why conform? Networking is the most common response, but who maintains connections with people they dislike? Money is the next most common response, but towards what ends? How much additional wealth does conformity buy, and why is deferring happiness worth it? Time is expensive - every day is one out of our limited and unknown lifespan. edit - To answer myself: Conformity was the fastest post-graduation path to funding my own business. Now that I can safely afford the gamble, the ideas still work but my priorities have changed - I recognize this corporate lifestyle of working 40h/week in an office thinking for profit is personally unsustainable regardless of who's boss. So, I stopped conforming and next spring I'm off for some tru-hiking/traveling then pivoting to a new field through grad school (the brewing recession might be a happy coincidence). I'm questioning myself, but no more than when I started college/working. I am confident that staying on the old path is the only wrong choice (sunk cost fallacy).

jerkstate 8y ago
Switching jobs is an enormous cost and risk to almost anybody. Sure, there are a lot of tech jobs, but you will probably spend dozens or hundreds hours changing to one that will pay you the same or more as you are making now. So you've got this sunk cost and there is no guarantee that your controversial opinion will be acceptable at your next job, unless you discuss it during your interview (which will probably mean it will take you longer to find a job, because that's just weird interview behavior) In my opinion, if you want to share controversial opinions, do it somewhere with a low switching cost, or high trust. I am happy to talk about my politics or sexuality at my hacker space, tree planting group, with regulars at the bar, or with my immediate family (who I love and trust even though we disagree on a lot). I am perfectly happy not finding common interests at work or the PTA, especially when I know my opinions are outside of the first standard deviation.

stefs 8y ago

expats often ask on our city-subreddit how to make friends. our go-to answer is usually: (sports/activity) clubs (not bars). i can observe this in our weightlifting club. your job, your home country, your social background, your interests don't matter much; we at least have the common interest in weightlifting as a conversation starter, and other activities (usually dinner after training) are common. from there on you can decide to further socializing by, e.g. helping people from that community with the various tasks (moving, computer troubles, the usual stuff). it's still possible for people to keep to themselves, but if you want to make friends, that's an easy way.