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The French protests are about people outside of metro areas who don't have access to the same quality of transportation infrastructure. London has world-class i

The French protests are about people outside of metro areas who don't have access to the same quality of transportation infrastructure. London has world-class infrastructure and many options for entering the city center without a car.

paganel 8y ago
That was the initial reason for the protest, yes, right now it’s a more general thing. And about London, afaik public transport is expensive as hell and once you get outside the M25 we’re talking trains and such, if I’m not mistaken, which are even more expensive and with a lot more time delays. So my point about this being a regressive tax stands, because it would be way cheaper for a blue collar English guy to commute using a 1000 pounds beater Vauxhall than to pay hundreds of pounds each month for public transport passes. But the current tax system prohibits this because that beater Vauxhall Corsa also pollutes the air breathed by the rich guy who pays 20 million pounds or more for a London condo, and it’s at that precise moment that you can hear that rich guy remember about “externalities” and “the tragedy of the commons”, but when his wealth manager invests in some copper company listed on the LSE that feeling about needing to cover for “externalities” totally goes above his head. Marx would have had a field day with the current political and societal situation in the West, it screams hypocrisy and “schizoid way of being” from a mile away.
- esotericn 8y ago
  My car cost 300 quid (yes, three hundred GBP - about 1-2 weeks rent in London). It is exempt from the ULEZ charge, both the 2019 and 2021 one. It's really not a high bar to hit. It actually should be going way further and faster.
- fyfy18 8y ago
  The current proposals will only extend as far as what is classed as 'Inner London' (contained by the north/south circular roads). As it is now, to drive within this area you will need to deal with lots of congestion and expensive parking fees (if there is even parking available at your workplace). The proposals coming into effect in 2021 will mean you need a petrol car no older than 16 years old or a diesel car no older than 7 years old, or have to pay for the privilege. Given the average age of cars in the UK is 8 years, it seems very few people would actually be affected by these changes. It's a small price to pay to improve the health for the 3.3 million people living in this area.
- Symbiote 8y ago
  Once you get outside the M25, if there's a possible journey by rail it's going to be better than driving to central London 99% of the time. I used to work in Zone 4 (out of 6, 1 is the centre) and most "blue collar" people still came in by train. Even if, as was sometimes the case, the rail journey was 10-15 minutes slower than the fastest possible road journey, it was at least reliably that fast. Road journeys were regularly delayed by ½-1-2 hours!
- scarejunba 8y ago
  This is really weird. I don’t know what to tell you. Very few people in England want to commute to Central London by car. The traffic is terrible, parking is hard to find and expensive, and you lose all the time you spend driving. You’re fighting a war on behalf of someone who doesn’t really exist.
  - esotericn 8y ago
    Pretty much. For the benefit of anyone else reading who doesn't know London: The North/South Circular restrictions are actually a thing that will hit many families, especially around the borders of the area, because it is actually a lot more convenient to drive around, there are some gaps in transport, it's more suburban, it's actually a more car-oriented part of the city, most streets will have cars lining both sides, etc. In 2021 this will happen and a non-negligible number of individuals will end up upgrading their cars (it probably won't cost them that much, a 500 quid car passes the bar). None of this stuff is really any sort of humanitarian disaster because it's all comfort/luxury stuff. It's nice to drive about there, useful, not essential though, and yeah, the 'barrier to entry' is basically not driving a shitbox. By contrast, "Central London" as defined by the inner ring road is an area that can be walked across in approximately an hour or cycled across in 20-30 mins, and has a bus stop on pretty much every street corner. It's plastered in traffic lights, it's difficult to even stop your car anywhere to pop into a corner shop without getting ticketed. At some point in the next few decades I can see a lot of it becoming "semi-pedestrianised" a bit like Krakow town center or something as attitudes change. This area will be covered in a few months time by the tax (it's already covered during business hours, it'll just be extended to 24/7). Realistically, in practice, it might mean the odd journey in on a Sunday will be replaced by parking just outside the zone and getting a bus in or something. The idea of it being a 'regressive tax' just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Barely anyone will actually end up paying it at all because it's cheaper to just get a better car. It's more like a soft-ban.
PunchTornado 8y ago
Tokyo has world class infrastructure. London has expensive, unaffordable, dirty and always late transportation infrastructure.

paganel 8y ago

That was the initial reason for the protest, yes, right now it’s a more general thing. And about London, afaik public transport is expensive as hell and once you get outside the M25 we’re talking trains and such, if I’m not mistaken, which are even more expensive and with a lot more time delays. So my point about this being a regressive tax stands, because it would be way cheaper for a blue collar English guy to commute using a 1000 pounds beater Vauxhall than to pay hundreds of pounds each month for public transport passes. But the current tax system prohibits this because that beater Vauxhall Corsa also pollutes the air breathed by the rich guy who pays 20 million pounds or more for a London condo, and it’s at that precise moment that you can hear that rich guy remember about “externalities” and “the tragedy of the commons”, but when his wealth manager invests in some copper company listed on the LSE that feeling about needing to cover for “externalities” totally goes above his head. Marx would have had a field day with the current political and societal situation in the West, it screams hypocrisy and “schizoid way of being” from a mile away.

esotericn 8y ago
My car cost 300 quid (yes, three hundred GBP - about 1-2 weeks rent in London). It is exempt from the ULEZ charge, both the 2019 and 2021 one. It's really not a high bar to hit. It actually should be going way further and faster.
fyfy18 8y ago
The current proposals will only extend as far as what is classed as 'Inner London' (contained by the north/south circular roads). As it is now, to drive within this area you will need to deal with lots of congestion and expensive parking fees (if there is even parking available at your workplace). The proposals coming into effect in 2021 will mean you need a petrol car no older than 16 years old or a diesel car no older than 7 years old, or have to pay for the privilege. Given the average age of cars in the UK is 8 years, it seems very few people would actually be affected by these changes. It's a small price to pay to improve the health for the 3.3 million people living in this area.
Symbiote 8y ago
Once you get outside the M25, if there's a possible journey by rail it's going to be better than driving to central London 99% of the time. I used to work in Zone 4 (out of 6, 1 is the centre) and most "blue collar" people still came in by train. Even if, as was sometimes the case, the rail journey was 10-15 minutes slower than the fastest possible road journey, it was at least reliably that fast. Road journeys were regularly delayed by ½-1-2 hours!
scarejunba 8y ago
This is really weird. I don’t know what to tell you. Very few people in England want to commute to Central London by car. The traffic is terrible, parking is hard to find and expensive, and you lose all the time you spend driving. You’re fighting a war on behalf of someone who doesn’t really exist.
- esotericn 8y ago
  Pretty much. For the benefit of anyone else reading who doesn't know London: The North/South Circular restrictions are actually a thing that will hit many families, especially around the borders of the area, because it is actually a lot more convenient to drive around, there are some gaps in transport, it's more suburban, it's actually a more car-oriented part of the city, most streets will have cars lining both sides, etc. In 2021 this will happen and a non-negligible number of individuals will end up upgrading their cars (it probably won't cost them that much, a 500 quid car passes the bar). None of this stuff is really any sort of humanitarian disaster because it's all comfort/luxury stuff. It's nice to drive about there, useful, not essential though, and yeah, the 'barrier to entry' is basically not driving a shitbox. By contrast, "Central London" as defined by the inner ring road is an area that can be walked across in approximately an hour or cycled across in 20-30 mins, and has a bus stop on pretty much every street corner. It's plastered in traffic lights, it's difficult to even stop your car anywhere to pop into a corner shop without getting ticketed. At some point in the next few decades I can see a lot of it becoming "semi-pedestrianised" a bit like Krakow town center or something as attitudes change. This area will be covered in a few months time by the tax (it's already covered during business hours, it'll just be extended to 24/7). Realistically, in practice, it might mean the odd journey in on a Sunday will be replaced by parking just outside the zone and getting a bus in or something. The idea of it being a 'regressive tax' just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Barely anyone will actually end up paying it at all because it's cheaper to just get a better car. It's more like a soft-ban.

PunchTornado 8y ago

Tokyo has world class infrastructure. London has expensive, unaffordable, dirty and always late transportation infrastructure.