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> Race should really be stripped from this kind statistic. Race is a social construct based on superficial attributes that does not carry any explanatory meanin

> Race should really be stripped from this kind statistic. Race is a social construct based on superficial attributes that does not carry any explanatory meaning. It mostly serves to underpin racist prejudice, which in turn serves to blur out the real reasons for a problem. In a lot of cases, racial prejudice is the problem, or a significant aspect of it. Racism is deeply embedded in the fabric of American society.

stareatgoats 8y ago
> Racism is deeply embedded in the fabric of American society. Yes, I'm sure, and racism is for sure "a significant aspect" of police brutality, I don't contest it. But racism is nonetheless merely a stupid pattern of thought, and I oppose the notion that combating it is to apply more racism. You'll note that the database doesn't analyze racism, it analyses race.
- TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
  Noting that race is a factor in police brutality is not racist, it is an anti-racist act.
- danso 8y ago
  > You'll note that the database doesn't analyze racism, it analyses race. It's impossible to do any analysis of racial disparity unless the race element is specifically recorded. And, as data collection is as much a political endeavor as it is technical, not every agency or state tracks race. You can see a not-quite complete collection and comparison of nationwide police data in the Stanford Open Policing Project (disclosure: started by one of my former colleagues) [0], and which states do/don't track driver race. Not all states have agreed to release their data. I wonder how you propose that a database "analyze racism"? A database contains data. If it's hard as it is to define and get data on race, you think there exists an arbiter and resulting data source for racism? [0] https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/data/ https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/data/
  - stareatgoats 8y ago
    The Stanford data set suffers from the same problems as the one in discussion: It opens up for correlating 'race' with foul behavior. Of course there may be such a correlation per se, just as there may be a correlation between heavy drinkers/medication abusers and excessive use of force. The problem with isolating the 'race' factor is that it promotes race hate, which is just stupid, when there are factors that are amendable ('race ' is not amendable). There is obviously a correlation between racism and inappropriate police work, but these kinds of data sets don't show that. > I wonder how you propose that a database "analyze racism"? I note that we are in agreement: you can't surmise racism from this kind of data, still that's what the presentation implies. To be able to establish the extent of racism one would have to conduct attitude research (psychological profiling) on the officers.
    - jakelazaroff 8y ago
      You're not in agreement. GP is saying that "racism" isn't a quantifiable metric, so you have to deduce it from data that include race. You're saying that it's not "racism" without officer intent, which is entirely semantic; data can still show racial discrimination.
    - Falling3 8y ago
      >The problem with isolating the 'race' factor is that it promotes race hate How is your stance any different from the common and absurd refrain that discussing racism is racist? We can't discuss racism without looking at race.
      - stareatgoats 8y ago
        I'm not familiar with that refrain, and agree it sounds absurd. FWIW I really do believe we need to discuss racism, however not with racist arguments.
        Falling3 8y ago
        I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on that either. But I fail to see the relevance of that in the context of this article.
xfitm3 8y ago
Racism is not limited to American society. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country
- rsynnott 8y ago
  If I said “there are 100 million cats in America” (made up number; I’m not a cat statistics expert), then “cats exist elsewhere” would not be a very useful reply. File under “true but contextually irrelevant”.

stareatgoats 8y ago

> Racism is deeply embedded in the fabric of American society. Yes, I'm sure, and racism is for sure "a significant aspect" of police brutality, I don't contest it. But racism is nonetheless merely a stupid pattern of thought, and I oppose the notion that combating it is to apply more racism. You'll note that the database doesn't analyze racism, it analyses race.

TazeTSchnitzel 8y ago
Noting that race is a factor in police brutality is not racist, it is an anti-racist act.
danso 8y ago
> You'll note that the database doesn't analyze racism, it analyses race. It's impossible to do any analysis of racial disparity unless the race element is specifically recorded. And, as data collection is as much a political endeavor as it is technical, not every agency or state tracks race. You can see a not-quite complete collection and comparison of nationwide police data in the Stanford Open Policing Project (disclosure: started by one of my former colleagues) [0], and which states do/don't track driver race. Not all states have agreed to release their data. I wonder how you propose that a database "analyze racism"? A database contains data. If it's hard as it is to define and get data on race, you think there exists an arbiter and resulting data source for racism? [0] https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/data/ https://openpolicing.stanford.edu/data/
- stareatgoats 8y ago
  The Stanford data set suffers from the same problems as the one in discussion: It opens up for correlating 'race' with foul behavior. Of course there may be such a correlation per se, just as there may be a correlation between heavy drinkers/medication abusers and excessive use of force. The problem with isolating the 'race' factor is that it promotes race hate, which is just stupid, when there are factors that are amendable ('race ' is not amendable). There is obviously a correlation between racism and inappropriate police work, but these kinds of data sets don't show that. > I wonder how you propose that a database "analyze racism"? I note that we are in agreement: you can't surmise racism from this kind of data, still that's what the presentation implies. To be able to establish the extent of racism one would have to conduct attitude research (psychological profiling) on the officers.
  - jakelazaroff 8y ago
    You're not in agreement. GP is saying that "racism" isn't a quantifiable metric, so you have to deduce it from data that include race. You're saying that it's not "racism" without officer intent, which is entirely semantic; data can still show racial discrimination.
  - Falling3 8y ago
    >The problem with isolating the 'race' factor is that it promotes race hate How is your stance any different from the common and absurd refrain that discussing racism is racist? We can't discuss racism without looking at race.
    - stareatgoats 8y ago
      I'm not familiar with that refrain, and agree it sounds absurd. FWIW I really do believe we need to discuss racism, however not with racist arguments.
      - Falling3 8y ago
        I don't think anyone here will disagree with you on that either. But I fail to see the relevance of that in the context of this article.

xfitm3 8y ago

Racism is not limited to American society. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_by_country

rsynnott 8y ago
If I said “there are 100 million cats in America” (made up number; I’m not a cat statistics expert), then “cats exist elsewhere” would not be a very useful reply. File under “true but contextually irrelevant”.